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What Should Happen to General McChrystal?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 05:50 pm
@Setanta,
And you are ignoring my point as well. I didn't suggest McClellan wasn't canned for military incompetence (or a strange unwillingness to engage in battle). He was indeed and deservedly so. I simply said that Lincoln endured much more insubordination and disrespectful behavior from McClellan than Obama did from McCrystal.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 05:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I have no idea what the american Afghanistan policy is. perhaps developing mineral mining or poppy harvesting, tourism?
My take is that the policy is to weaken the Taliban enough that they don't take Pakistan, and to not allow either the Taliban nor Bin laden to operate in Afganistan, which requires standing up a government there.
so the american afghanistan policy is pretty much the same as the USSR afghanistan policy, when the taliban and Bin Laden show up together waving white flags and pledging undying love for Karzai, we americans can declare a win? using a cost/benefit analysis how many dead/wounded americans and $ will that cost? Now, about Pakistan and Iran, what's the american policy for that scene?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 05:59 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Lincoln endured much more insubordination and disrespectful behavior from McClellan than Obama did from McCrystal.
Obama is a lot like Bush in that respect....he has a very thin skin when it comes to contradicting him if the speaker is supposed to be on Team Obama. For instance Team Obama made it very clear that Carville was out of line speaking the way he did on the oil flow mess two weeks back. Obama has also many times lowered the hammer on leaks in his White HOuse. He loves playing stern daddy, but the problem is that he is loosing the respect of just about everybody, it has been a near constant downward trend ever since he got into office. That his front line commander in Afghanistan did not respect this White House should not be a surprise to anyone
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 06:00 pm
@georgeob1,
It's still a poor analogy. McChrystal has not been alleged by anyone to have been militarily incompetent. Furthermore, McClellan did not publicly challenge Lincoln's military policy. His toad eaters did, although not very effectively. They were justifiably terrorized by the committee on the conduct of the war--Congress was a bitch in those days.

McChrystal's problems do not resemble McClellan's at all. They do resemble MacArthur, with the caveat that i doubt that McChrystal has an ego to match Doug's.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 06:07 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
. . . a strange unwillingness to engage in battle . . .


By the way, that's an excellent way to put it. Recently, historians have begun to analyze McClellan as having that specific failure. He had built up an extremely well-organized, well-equipped, well-trained and well-commanded army--and then grew reluctant to risk it in battle. That is almost verbatim how one historian (whose work i read long enough ago to have forgotten who it was) described it.

Fitz John Porter was the object of Lee's attacks at the beginning of the Seven Days. I won't go into the stupidity which preceded or accompanied that operation. Porter conducted a fighting retreat, and punished Lee's army severely in the process, inflicting thousands of deaths and many thousands of wounds over a period of three days, during which his troops never broke formation, and any retreat the Southern hagiographers are pleased to call routs were in fact cases of his troops falling back on prepared defenses which had already been manned.

Porter could not have accomplished that if his subordinate commanders were not properly trained in their duties, and certainly never could have accomplished that unless his rank and file were highly-trained, highly-motivated and completely confident in their leadership.

McClellan had built a magnificent fighting machine--but neither he nor any other commander of that army used it effectively until George Meade took over.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:27 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

McClellan had built a magnificent fighting machine--but neither he nor any other commander of that army used it effectively until George Meade took over.


It is a not uncommon phenomenon, though few have exemplified it to the degree that the boy Civil War general did. Peacetime commanders, even those who delivered well-trained and motivated armies, often prove reluctant to spend the objects of their former efforts in the destructive process of battle. I suspect this is one of the key factors behing the rather wholesale replacement of field commanders that attends most wars in their early months. History is full of reluctant generals who were unable to grasp the reality of wars of attrition. The contrast between Grant and McClellan on this point is particularly stark. In addition, soldiers aren't fools: they often dearly love commanders who are unduly cautious with their lives.

There were a couple of very good examples among the British generals in the early years of the Boer War, and among both British and French in WWI. We had some of the same during WWII, in North Africa (Gen Truscott I believe). The Navy saw it too, though circumstances forced them to fight, and lose badly in the early battles of the Java Sea and around Guadalcanal. Adm Halsey's rapid rise was simply the result of dogged aggressiveness, not, as things turned out, great skill.
Philis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:45 pm
I hope this will not affect the moral of McChrystals' supporting soldiers. The buzz will now be heard around the world, don't talk openly about the US Prez. while in the military.
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:50 pm
@Philis,
Anybody who has served in the military knows better than to show open disloyalty. If that were allowed, you would have a rabble, not a fighting force.
LionTamerX
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:58 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
McChrystal's problems do not resemble McClellan's at all. They do resemble MacArthur, with the caveat that i doubt that McChrystal has an ego to match Doug's.


Do you think McChrystal is a momma's boy like Mac Arthur was ?
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 09:04 pm
@edgarblythe,
Lash made a point about this a few pages ago.....how people's opinions on this seem to mirror their politics (think about the military people who spoke out against Bush, or how John Kerry spoke out against Vietnam).

I tend to agree......
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 09:09 pm
@maporsche,
Military people no longer in the service are private citizens. They have the right to speak out, liberal or conservative. On active duty, you calculate the risk and take your chances. It is not a matter of ideology at all.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 09:13 pm
It is my understanding that McChrystal voted for Obama.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 09:15 pm
@plainoldme,
So did I. Doesn't mean I agree.
0 Replies
 
CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 11:02 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

You seem to be ignoring the point of what i posted--which is that McClellan was fired for military incompetence. MacArthur, for whatever anyone may allege against him, was not militarily incompetent. McChrystal, while not self-evidently a military genius (nor a military genus, as Rapist Boy would have it), is not incompetent either. My point about McClellan and Lincoln was that those who did not challenge Lincoln politically, and who were militarily competent, kept their jobs. McClellan lost his job because he couldn't defeat Lee, even when he had it handed to him on a platter.


Actually, judging by our status and lack of progress in afghanistan, I woudld say McChrystal was incompetant. His idea didn't work. It doesn't work.
djjd62
 
  3  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 11:08 am
I say McChrystal rallies the troops and launches a night time offensive on Washington and takes the country back for decent god fearing Americans

he could call this manoeuvre, The Night of the Long Knives or McChrystal Nacht


wait, what?



Twisted Evil

0 Replies
 
CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 11:08 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

McChrystal's problems do not resemble McClellan's at all. They do resemble MacArthur, with the caveat that i doubt that McChrystal has an ego to match Doug's.


Well, according to the article which got him in trouble, McChrystal has a very big ego, and always has.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 11:10 am
I'm gonna throw this out for discussion.
Is there a lack of progress?

We haven't really committed all our resources.
I seem to remember the Russkies having much less success.
CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 12:57 pm
@panzade,
From my perspective, we do have a sever lack of progress.
Nearly ten years later, we still haven't obliterated the terrorist organizations whom we are against.
We don't have the support of the afghan people.
And we are still there.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 01:26 pm
@panzade,
Gates says there is progress, but that it's slow, and asks for our patience. That's about all we have to go on unless we know someone personally serving.

I used to try to read the blogs of a few of the embeds who would pretty much tell it like it is. Those are few and far between now, though.

Wouldn't want Petraeus' job, I do know that.
djjd62
 
  4  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 01:44 pm
@Irishk,
am i the only one who finds a certain humour in the fact that Obama replaces a seeming backstabber, with someone who's name sounds like Betray Us Shocked
0 Replies
 
 

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