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What Should Happen to General McChrystal?

 
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 02:51 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
If legal action is taken against him, then my opinion on the matter may change.


Legal action against McChrystal? I hadn't heard about that. What possible grounds could there be for legal action, do you think?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 02:51 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

maporsche wrote:
If legal action is taken against him, then my opinion on the matter may change.


Legal action against McChrystal? I hadn't heard about that. What possible grounds could there be for legal action, do you think?


None, it wouldn't hold up in court

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 02:54 pm
@Irishk,
I don't know; I wasn't sure what the penalty for 'breaking' that military code would be.

Any action to lower his rank or court marshel him, I would disagree with.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 02:57 pm
@maporsche,
Thanks for the replies, maporsche and Cyc.

I agree...I'd be very surprised to see that type of action. We've probably seen the last of the general for a while...until/unless he writes a book.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 03:02 pm
I'm not surprised, but nevertheless intrigued, at how this question, too, appears to be turning on partisan preferences. Of the posters now calling for McCrystal's head, about half cried foul when Bush fired General Shinsake for publically questioning Bush administration cost estimates, in money and troups, of Operation Iraqi Freedom. I think they were right the first time.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 03:04 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

I'm not surprised, but nevertheless intrigued, at how this question, too, appears to be turning on partisan preferences. Of the posters now calling for McCrystal's head, about half cried foul when Bush fired General Shinsake for publically questioning Bush administration cost estimates, in money and troups, of Operation Iraqi Freedom. I think they were right the first time.


You'll note that I argued in this thread that Obama probably shouldn't have fired the guy.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 03:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
You'll note that I argued in this thread that Obama probably shouldn't have fired the guy.
has anyone of note other than Karzai said that McChrystal should not be fired?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 03:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Yep---that would make you one of the other half.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 07:18 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

I'm not surprised, but nevertheless intrigued, at how this question, too, appears to be turning on partisan preferences. Of the posters now calling for McCrystal's head, about half cried foul when Bush fired General Shinsake for publically questioning Bush administration cost estimates, in money and troups, of Operation Iraqi Freedom. I think they were right the first time.


I basically agree, but I have got less mellow towards Mc Chrystal as I read the article.

He and his cronies come across as pretty repulsive in a whole range of ways...and that they lacked the judgment to know not to carry on like that in front of a journalist makes me doubt their judgment in the field. They just come across to me as too totally bound up in their particular world view to have the ability to assess reasonably objectively how their tactics are going....kind of a Nixonian bunker mentality.

Of course, I have no way of knowing if this is how it always is. If it is....that's scary!

It sounds as though the frustration I wondered about in my first post is there but I am not sure how good this guy is at dealing with people who do not toe his line.

Previously, I had thought the comments McC made might have been carefully considered criticisms of what was being done in Afghanistan.

It's a pretty fascinating look at how soldiers of his generation were raised and all.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 07:35 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
It's a pretty fascinating look at how soldiers of his generation were raised and all
Actually for a long time officers have been too risk adverse, McChrystal has always been promoted as being unusual in his willingness to take risks and be blunt.

I think that he was an idiot to trust a Rolling Stone reporter, but this will greatly strengthen the case of those who argue that allowing the press wide access is not in the military's best interests. There are a lot of officers who don't trust the press, and who resent the time they suck up with their stupid questions, and the manhours that get sucked up administering to their requests.

McChrytal's people are claiming that Rolling Stone violated the ground rules, Rolling Stone denies it.

David Brooks has an interesting take:
Quote:
But McChrystal, like everyone else, kvetched. And having apparently missed the last 50 years of cultural history, he did so on the record, in front of a reporter. And this reporter, being a product of the culture of exposure, made the kvetching the center of his magazine profile.

By putting the kvetching in the magazine, the reporter essentially took run-of-the-mill complaining and turned it into a direct challenge to presidential authority. He took a successful general and made it impossible for President Obama to retain him.

The reticent ethos had its flaws. But the exposure ethos, with its relentless emphasis on destroying privacy and exposing impurities, has chased good people from public life, undermined public faith in institutions and elevated the trivial over the important.

Another scalp is on the wall. Government officials will erect even higher walls between themselves and the outside world. The honest and freewheeling will continue to flee public life, and the cautious and calculating will remain.

The culture of exposure has triumphed, with results for all to see.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/opinion/25brooks.html?hp
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 07:58 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
He and his cronies come across as pretty repulsive in a whole range of ways...and that they lacked the judgment to know not to carry on like that in front of a journalist makes me doubt their judgment in the field.

I don't think that's fair. They're soldiers trying to win a war, not press spokesmen campaigning for their boss's standing in the polls. They shouldn't have to have any judgment on how to deal with the press.

I think the weak link in this chain of SNAFUs is the whole press-embedding thing within the military. Beginning in the Bush Administration, White House press officials have been having this vision that the best way to sell a war is through reality TV---or in the Rolling Stone's case, reality press. And now they're all upset that their nice little show is intruded into by, of all things, reality.

Apart from that, I don't see anything dramatic going on. Patriotic bromides aside, war is a business. Soldiers are no more and no less than a bunch of employees trying to get a job done. And just as in any other business, some employees are disgruntled, so they vent by talking trash about their boss. Big deal. We've all seen this in our own jobs. This brouhaha is a tempest in a teapot.

dlowan wrote:
It's a pretty fascinating look at how soldiers of his generation were raised and all.

I agree. It's a good article.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 08:04 pm
@Thomas,
Actually, though I can see why you might think I'm most concerned about bad press handling skills, but the rest of the post is more to the point.

I think the press stuff just allowed an "in" to their thinking.

It's an incredible article!!!!
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 08:16 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

I don't think that's fair. They're soldiers trying to win a war, not press spokesmen campaigning for their boss's standing in the polls. They shouldn't have to have any judgment on how to deal with the press.

I think that is true for run of the mill soldiers, but not for the general in charge. Part of his job is being a spokesman for the military. If you ask anyone else, they're supposed to say "you'll have to ask the general." To some extent, this is true of the general's staff as well. A major or colonel on staff is chosen for his discretion and competency. These weren't run of the mill G.I.'s, it was the general in charge and his staff. Absolutely, they should have known what they were doing and they are responsible for every word.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 08:32 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
I think that is true for run of the mill soldiers, but not for the general in charge. Part of his job is being a spokesman for the military.
Plus McChrystal had military PR people assigned to him, their only job is to help him manage the media/message.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 08:37 pm
I was wondering what the reaction at Rolling Stone was to McChrystal's resignation and went poking around. I haven't found anything, really, but I thought this questionaire from the fact checker was interesting. Several things in the article came across quite differently than reality.

I found this particularly interesting:

Quote:
30.) Did Gen. McChrystal vote for President Obama? [The reporter tells me that this info originates from McChrystal himself.]

IMPORTANT -- PLEASE DO NOT INCLUDE THIS -- THIS IS PERSONAL AND PRIVATE INFORMATION AND UNREALTED TO HIS JOB. IT WOULD BE INAPPROPRIATE TO SHARE. MY REASON FOR THIS IS IT WOULD PRESENT AN UNDUE COMMAND INFLLUENCE ON JUNIOR OFFICERS OR SOLDIERS WHO SHOULD MAKE THEIR OWN POLITICAL DECISIONS. THERE ARE VERY STRICT RULES IN THE MILITARY ON SEPARATING CHURCH AND STATE ON THIS SORT OF STUFF - HAVE TO KEEP OUT OF POLITICAL PREFERENCE AND PERSONAL CHOICE.


(The whole deal at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/25/AR2010062504194.html)
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 08:48 pm
@boomerang,
more importantly a lot of the stuff was actually said, but those who said it assumed that it was off the record, that this reporter was being given background on how the command operates to help him decide what to say but it was not to be part of the story. They seem to feel that Rolling Stone played dirty, that they knew the standard reporter/military protocol but chose to ignore it to get a juicy story.

More importantly they now feel that a very good officer was brought down by a media representative playing dirty pool.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 09:06 pm
I doubt they'll be many soldiers willing to talk to the media anymore.

This article took down more than McChrystal -- I'm betting that everyone on McChrystal's staff is going to leave the military too -- their prospects for promotion are gone.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 09:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
David Brooks: The culture of exposure has triumphed, with results for all to see.


Geeze, David, I thought that you were a reporter. Is it a reporter's job to cover up 'cause you and the rest of the media are sure good at that.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 09:10 pm
@boomerang,
And this is McChrystal's failing as well. By not insisting on a professional environment, his entire staff developed diarrhea of the mouth which in this case was fatal. The boss set the tone here and everyone will suffer.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 09:19 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
The boss set the tone here and everyone will suffer
No.....the blame will all be laid on McChrystals door, because we have a war to fight and can't tolerate loosing anymore good people over this. Petraeus will in time bring in a lot of new people that he is more comfortable with, but for now everyone else sticks. McChrystal ran a frat house command, Petraeus operates like he is running an Ivy League seminar, and thus he will want a different type of crew. But the offensive is already behind schedule, Petraeus does not have the luxury of putting in the guys he wants right now...there is no time for the train up.
0 Replies
 
 

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