cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 06:05 pm
@giujohn,
That's going to difficult to comprehend from all the different stars, galaxies, and space that keeps expanding.
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 08:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Well, not when you conceptualise that spacetime makes it's own space. Think of an expanding balloon where spacetime is on the inside of the balloon and the nothingness is on the outside of the balloon.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 08:35 pm
@giujohn,
From my little understanding of space, it's also full of energy.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2014 07:13 pm
@giujohn,
I first though on that when I was 12...the answer resumes 2 possibles ways A no real expansion or B time is an illusion and the future of space expansion is already accomplished a priori. You cannot expand into nothingness movement wouldn't be allowed. You want to move you need space.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2014 07:26 pm
@giujohn,
Quote:
There had to be something before the singularity


Why did there have to be something before the singularity?

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2014 07:32 pm
@Cyracuz,
Time had to be there.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2014 07:40 pm
The singularity might just as well be eternal. In fact if time started to exist along with space at the singularity it was indeed eternal.

Now the question should be something else entirely. How was it that there was a change ? And that is what prompts us to think that there might be a before since there wasn't a perfect equilibrium in place. In which case we need some sort of a loop, because if spacetime cannot grow into nothingness, past present and future need to be already ensemble defined. There is a variety of possible loop scenarios for the singularity. Some of them were already refuted, big bang big crunch comes to mind, but not all. One of the alternate possibilities accounts for Universes coming and going inside Multiverse.
Now, from there one might reiterate the problem, does the Multiverse itself had a beginning, since the Multiverse must itself have a history of previous states ? Well, it depends on how one "chooses" to think about the matter but not (no beginning) if whatever goes on in it is a constant loop of creation and destruction of Universes with perfect equilibrium on which all the possibilities are always explored (no loss of information). It pretty much looks like something static that never changes once change itself is self encircled redundant.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2014 07:49 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Previous post edited as usual... please read again. Thank you and good nigh all. (to late here in Portugal)
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 03:22 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
From my little understanding of space, it's also full of energy.


Even in space where there is no measureable energy, in what we call the "nothingness" of space, there is something. It is called the zero point energy. Virtual particles pop in and out f existence at random (yes Virginia, determinism is an illusion) Where do these particles come from and where do they go to? To the nothingness that is outside of our universe (another dimension?) This is proved conclusively by the Casimer Effect experiment.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 03:28 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
You cannot expand into nothingness movement wouldn't be allowed. You want to move you need space.

Under what precedent or law of physics do you make such an assumption?
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 03:49 am
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
Why did there have to be something before the singularity?


Because of causality and because nature abhors a vacuum.

What was before the universe was nothingness or the negative. If you subtract negative 2 from neagtive 1, what do you get???
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 03:50 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Time had to be there.


So there was time before there was time????
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 04:14 am
Maybe it's the difficulty to wrap our classicsal heads around non classical concepts that is the problem here.
Can you conceptualize that there can be more of nothing? Because there would have to be to explain how the universe came into existence from nothing. And because our universe does exist as something (notwithstanding Frank!) causality and logic dictate that it had to come from nothing because spacetime started with the birth of this universe. And if nothingness is the absense of time it had to exist before our universe, and if it existed...it was something...it was nothing!!!!!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 11:05 am
@giujohn,
You,
Quote:
So there was time before there was time????


You're not making any sense. Try again. LOL
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 11:23 am
@giujohn,
Quote:
Because of causality and because nature abhors a vacuum.


Causality is a human invention. The dividing of experience into different events that happen in sequence. How do we decide where one event ends and the next begins? By arbitrary judgment is how, according to principles we have derived from the judgments of our ancestors.
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 01:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You:
"Time had to be there."

I thought you were saying it had to be there before the singularity.
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 02:03 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
Causality is a human invention. The dividing of experience into different events that happen in sequence. How do we decide where one event ends and the next begins? By arbitrary judgment is how, according to principles we have derived from the judgments of our ancestors.


Not true. The answer is, because of the arrow of time. Ever see a broken egg fall off a table and hit the floor? Ever see an egg put it's self back together and go back up to the table?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 02:10 pm
@giujohn,
It does.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 02:57 pm
@giujohn,
There is nothing to move upon is good enough ? It should... Laughing
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 03:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Space and time began with the birth of the universe.There was nothing before the begining...thats the nature of nothing...no time. To say there was time before the universe began, is to say the universe was in existanece before it existed! That is waht does not make sense. The arrow of time stared with this universe. As with occams razor the simpler explanation is the usually correct.
 

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