DOES NOTHING EXIST???

@guigus,

Quote:

1) Nothing -- not any number, hence nothing, since numbers are the only objects we can multiply

Here you tell us that "nothing" is not a number, and therefore cannot be multiplied.

But then you say

Quote:

1) No number multiplied by zero equals one.

But the apparent contradiction aside, what does it even mean that "nothing" multiplied ZERO times equals ONE?
If that can be applied to apples you may have just solved the global food problem.

2 Replies

@Cyracuz,

Quote:

If that can be applied to apples you may have just solved the global food problem.

That was a very nice way to start my day...I am still laughing with the simple efficiency of your joke...congrats are in place Cyr ! Cool

(...just imagine what Newton would have thought if apples were to fall out of nowhere...maybe we would have multi-dimensional gravity allot sooner !... )

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
1) Nothing -- not any number, hence nothing, since numbers are the only objects we can multiply [...]

Here you tell us that "nothing" is not a number, and therefore cannot be multiplied.

Nothing is not only not a number: it is also not anything else -- it is nothing at all.

Cyracuz wrote:

But then you say

Quote:
1) No number multiplied by zero equals one.

But the apparent contradiction aside, [...]

This is not only an apparent contradiction, it is also a real one, so let us not put it aside.

Assuming you agree that no number multiplied by zero equals one, as also that nothing else can be multiplied by zero to give us one -- which leaves us, precisely, with nothing that multiplied by zero equals one -- then perhaps you are telling me that "nothing multiplied by zero equals one" is meaningless, as it is not a mathematical operation. But:

1) I never said it was -- I said precisely the opposite, and more than once.
2) My reasoning does not depend on its being so, much on the contrary.

And indeed, by no means "nothing multiplied by zero equals one" being no mathematical operation makes it meaningless: it still means exactly the same as:

Whatever you try multiplying by zero will never give you one.

Which is not only meaningful, but also mathematically correct, despite being no mathematical operation (perhaps the fact that a non-mathematical statement can be mathematically correct is confusing you).

Cyracuz wrote:

[...] what does it even mean that "nothing" multiplied ZERO times equals ONE?

Congratulations, this is precisely the real contradiction here: by taking nothing as meaning something, you get a very strange mathematical operation in which nothing multiplied by zero yields not only one, but also any other number. However, this is only a "shortcut," so here is the reasoning behind it:

1) Nothing is different from zero -- the conclusion of my previous reasoning -- possibly meaning that everything is identical to zero.
2) Everything is eventually identical to zero, possibly meaning that everything has no quantity -- once all quantities are zero.
3) Eventually, everything has no quantity, necessarily meaning it also has no quality, so everything is nothing -- including all numbers.

By which you can, eventually -- once nothing is, for instance, one -- say that "nothing multiplied by zero equals one."

Cyracuz wrote:

If that can be applied to apples you may have just solved the global food problem.

As I explained above, in the context allowing you to say that "nothing multiplied by zero equals one" there is no food, no people, and -- understandably -- no food problem -- but unfortunately also no solution to either the food problem or any other -- since, in such a context, nothing is the same as being -- a rather extreme environment.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Quote:
If that can be applied to apples you may have just solved the global food problem.

That was a very nice way to start my day...I am still laughing with the simple efficiency of your joke...congrats are in place Cyr !

(...just imagine what Newton would have thought if apples were to fall out of nowhere...maybe we would have multi-dimensional gravity allot sooner !... )

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE

While you laugh, I think:

1) No number multiplied by zero equals one.
2) Nothing other than a number multiplied by zero equals one.
3) Nothing multiplied by zero equals one.
4) Zero multiplied by zero does not equal one.
5) Nothing is different from zero.
6) Everything is identical to zero.
7) All quantities are zero.
8) There is no quantity.
9) Everything has no quantity.
10) Everything has no quality.
11) Everything is identical to nothing.
12) Zero is identical to nothing.
13) One is identical to nothing.
14) One is identical to zero.
15) Nothing (zero) multiplied by zero (zero) equals one (zero).

So it is impossible to use "nothing multiplied by zero equals one" to solve any problems by taking "nothing" as meaning "something," since whenever being and nothingness are the same, there are no longer any problems to solve.

2 Replies

@guigus,

You logic is "une petit merveille" from another dimension...and my English incapable of grasping the depth of your targeting scanners... Cool

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

You logic is "une petit merveille" from another dimension...and my English incapable of grasping the depth of your targeting scanners...

You are perfectly capable of understanding, although not willing to accept. Putting it a little better:

1. No number multiplied by zero equals one.
2. Nothing else multiplied by zero equals one.
3. Nothing multiplied by zero equals one.
4. Zero multiplied by zero does not equal one.
5. Nothing is not zero.
6. Everything is zero.
7. All quantities are zero.
8. All quantities are no quantity.
9. There is no quantity.
10. No quality has a quantity.
11. There is no quality.
12. Nothing has either any quantity or any quality.
13. Nothing multiplied by zero equals one.

0 Replies

Lets concentrate on this five steps:

1. No number multiplied by zero equals one.
2. Nothing else multiplied by zero equals one, other than a number.
3. Nothing multiplied by zero equals one: neither numbers nor anything
else.
4. Zero multiplied by zero does not equal one: it equals zero instead.
5. Nothing is not zero, since it is either not multipliable by a number,
unlike zero, or otherwise yields different results.

There is no escape: nothing is not zero. However, this has two possible meanings:

1. That something called "nothing" is different from zero.
2. That not a damn thing is different from zero.

I think this is enough to show how different from zero nothing is.

1 Reply

@guigus,

Quote:

something called "nothing"

This is the fallacy of reification because "nothing" is not a thing.

1 Reply

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper wrote:

Quote:
something called "nothing"

This is the fallacy of reification because "nothing" is not a thing.

Let us assume such reification to be a fallacy, then try not reifying nothing:

1. No number multiplied by zero equals one (no reification).
2. Nothing else multiplied by zero equals one, other than a number (no reification).
3. Nothing multiplied by zero equals one: neither numbers nor anything
else (still no reification).
4. Zero multiplied by zero does not equal one: it equals zero instead (no reference to nothing here, hence no reification of it).
5. Nothing does not mean (to escape reification) zero, since whatever it means is not multipliable by a number, unlike zero.

Hence, even with no reification of nothing, we arrive at the conclusion that it has a different meaning than zero. So whatever nothing refers to must be something else than whatever zero refers to. But what could be less than zero? Or what could be more without being something?

PS: Thinking is always better than torturing the cliché.

2 Replies

@guigus,

A small correction:

guigus wrote:

Let us assume such reification to be a fallacy, then try not reifying nothing:

1. No number multiplied by zero equals one (no reification).
2. Nothing else multiplied by zero equals one, other than a number (no reification).
3. Nothing multiplied by zero equals one: neither numbers nor anything
else (still no reification).
4. Zero multiplied by zero does not equal one: it equals zero instead (no reference to nothing here, hence no reification of it).
5. Nothing does not mean (to escape reification) zero, since whatever it means is not multipliable by a number, unlike zero.

Hence, even with no reification of nothing, we arrive at the conclusion that it has a different meaning than zero. So whatever nothing refers to must be something else than whatever zero refers to. But what could be less than zero and still be nothing? Or what could be more than zero and still be nothing?

PS: Thinking is always better than torturing the cliché.

0 Replies

@guigus,

guigus wrote:

3. Nothing multiplied by zero equals one: neither numbers nor anything
else (still no reification).

This is the problem. Your wording is ambiguous. You should say, "there is no quantity which, when multiplied by zero, equals one". Otherwise it sounds like you're saying, "nothing * 0 = 1".

1 Reply

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper wrote:

guigus wrote:
3. Nothing multiplied by zero equals one: neither numbers nor anything
else (still no reification).

This is the problem. Your wording is ambiguous. You should say, "there is no quantity which, when multiplied by zero, equals one". Otherwise it sounds like you're saying, "nothing * 0 = 1".

It is the concept of nothing that is ambiguous, not my "wording." And your suggested assertion is already part of my reasoning (step 1), which makes me suspect you didn't read it -- what you propose is not a "rewording," but rather an amputation of part of my reasoning, namely, of step 2, in which I state that nothing else multiplied by zero equals one, other than a number.

Anyway, let me still rephrase in a way I suspect will make you more comfortable:

1. No number can be multiplied by zero and give us one.
2. Nothing else (than a number) can be multiplied by zero and give us one, simply because it cannot be multiplied at all.

Now I ask you: what can be multiplied by zero and give us one? Although you can cowardly say "no number," you can more generally say: "nothing" -- and it's better that you opt for the latter so you don't give the impression that, apart from numbers, there would be something that could be multiplied by zero and give us one.

1 Reply

@guigus,

guigus wrote:

Now I ask you: what can be multiplied by zero and give us one?

There is not any thing that can be multiplied by zero and give us one.

The trick is to mentally replace "nothing" with "not any thing" whenever you see it and you'll avoid reification.

1 Reply

@guigus,

Quote:

by taking nothing as meaning something, you get a very strange mathematical operation in which nothing multiplied by zero yields not only one, but also any other number.

No. Anything multiplied by zero equals zero. Even nothing. That's why they invented intrest.

0 Replies

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper wrote:

guigus wrote:
Now I ask you: what can be multiplied by zero and give us one?

There is not any thing that can be multiplied by zero and give us one.

The trick is to mentally replace "nothing" with "not any thing" whenever you see it and you'll avoid reification.

We are making progress: you finally accepted that nothing (not any thing) other than a number multiplied by zero equals one. Fine! So let's tackle your "trick":

Isn't "not any thing" the same as "the absence of everything"? Sure it is. Then:

1. The absence of everything multiplied by zero equals one.
2. Zero multiplied by zero does not equal one.

Conclusion: zero is not the absence of everything, which we usually call nothing -- a concept our dear Night Ripper wants to "mentally replace" by a not yet reflected version of itself. And he refuses to reflect about what he said, so nothing will remain excluded from his objects of reflection. He refuses to make himself the question: what is this "not any thing" I referred to? If he made himself that question, he would have arrived at the concept of absolute nothingness -- the absence of everything -- which he avoids at all costs.

The real trick here is to stop trying to "mentally replace" thinking by cheating, or stop "tricking" yourself that you are actually thinking and start actually doing it.

1 Reply

@guigus,

"Not any thing" is not the same as "the absence of everything". You seem to overlook the fact that these concepts are useless without context.

zero, nothing, not any thing... all these are meaningful only as "negative representations" of something, and these relationships happen only inside your perception. It is just as simple as it sounds, and for my own part I do not think there are any deeper secrets to be gleaned from it.

And if you say *0, that =0 no matter what you put in front of it. End of...

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

"Not any thing" is not the same as "the absence of everything". You seem to overlook the fact that these concepts are useless without context.

Then please give us a context in which the existence of "not any thing" (or "not a thing," or "no thing," or "nothing") would not be "the absence of everything." Perhaps then I can see what I am "overlooking"...

Cyracuz wrote:

zero, nothing, not any thing... all these are meaningful only as "negative representations" of something, [...]

You are confusing the fact that you cannot conceive of absolute nothingness with its supposedly having no meaning: although you cannot conceive of absolute nothingness, it has the precise meaning of "the absence of everything" -- again, even if you are utterly unable to conceive of that absence.

The meaning of nothing is one thing, your capacity to conceive of something in practice corresponding to that meaning is another -- if it had no meaning, then you wouldn't even be able to try to conceive of something to match that meaning.

Cyracuz wrote:

and these relationships happen only inside your perception.

This is not the point: wherever it happens, it happens that nothing can be multiplied by zero giving us one, while zero cannot. It is irrelevant whether this happens in my perception, or in my reason, or in yours, or in Mars, or whatever.

Cyracuz wrote:

It is just as simple as it sounds, [...]

I will spare you of how what you are saying sounds to me...

Cyracuz wrote:

and for my own part I do not think there are any deeper secrets to be gleaned from it.

Now tell me something I don't already know...

Cyracuz wrote:

And if you say *0, that =0 no matter what you put in front of it. End of...

So you are saying that I can put "nothing" there? So I can say that "nothing times zero equals zero"? As I suspected, you are not thinking in what you are saying: something times zero equals zero -- that something includes 1, 2, 3...

1 Reply

When I say that nothing multiplied by zero equals one, the original meaning of nothing is "not any number nor any other object." However, if I ask what is "not any number nor any other object," then I must answer: nothing. The only way to avoid it is not asking, not thinking. Very sad: in a philosophical thread, all you have to say is: "don't ask." This way you will never be "able2know"...

1 Reply

@guigus,

guigus...
if you ever find yourself in a situation where your life depends on your ability to reason logically you'd be truly screwed

lol

2 Replies

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

guigus...
if you ever find yourself in a situation where your life depends on your ability to reason logically you'd be truly screwed

lol

I could say the same about you, which would lead us to... nothing -- you are supposed to show the flaw in my reasoning, remember?

1 Reply

DOES NOTHING EXIST???

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