0
   

Does time really exist?

 
 
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 01:31 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;171173 wrote:
Nothing can go from not existing to existing,
I exist now but didn't in the 19th century, therefore there was a time when I didn't exist, and from not existing came to exist. In short, I went from not existing to existing.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 01:43 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171174 wrote:
I exist now but didn't in the 19th century, therefore there was a time when I didn't exist, and from not existing came to exist. In short, I went from not existing to existing.


There was a time when U. did not exist, does not imply that there was a time when a non-existent U. existed. The proposition that, U. did not exist at T1 does not imply U existed at T1. That is one thing you may rely on, since it is false that p implies ~p is a logical truth.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 01:56 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;171177 wrote:
There was a time when U. did not exist, does not imply that there was a time when a non-existent U. existed. The proposition that, U. did not exist at T1 does not imply U existed at T1. That is one thing you may rely on, since it is false that p implies ~p is a logical truth.
I didn't exist, now I exist, which is to say that I went from nonexistence, the state of the world in which nothing was me, to existing, the state of the world in which something is me. Conversely, dinosaurs went from existence to nonexistence, as dinosaurs are extinct, which is to say that they no longer exist. Are you claiming that dinosaurs exist?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 06:03 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171181 wrote:
I didn't exist, now I exist, which is to say that I went from nonexistence, the state of the world in which nothing was me, to existing, the state of the world in which something is me. Conversely, dinosaurs went from existence to nonexistence, as dinosaurs are extinct, which is to say that they no longer exist. Are you claiming that dinosaurs exist?


Now, you know that I am not claiming that dinosaurs are now living, if that is what you are asking. If you are asking whether the proposition that something is a dinosaur in X b c. the answer is yes. It seems to me that you should distinguish between there are Y's, and Y's are alive. The trouble is that in the case of living things, the term, "exists" (or better, "there are") tends to suggest being alive.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:02 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;171211 wrote:
Now, you know that I am not claiming that dinosaurs are now living, if that is what you are asking. If you are asking whether the proposition that something is a dinosaur in X b c. the answer is yes. It seems to me that you should distinguish between there are Y's, and Y's are alive. The trouble is that in the case of living things, the term, "exists" (or better, "there are") tends to suggest being alive.
Does this add up to a claim that dinosaurs exist, or not?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:08 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171222 wrote:
Does this add up to a claim that dinosaurs exist, or not?


The claim that the statement that dinosaurs exist in the X b.c. is true, if that is what the claim that dinosaurs exist means. On the other hand, if the claim that dinosaurs are alive in the year 2010 is meant, then that claim is false. You can take it from there. It is rather obtuse to say that you do not care whether S is ambiguous, but want to know whether S is true regardless of what S means. Don't you think?
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:18 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;171226 wrote:
The claim that the statement that dinosaurs exist in the X b.c. is true, if that is what the claim that dinosaurs exist means.
Obviously that's not what the claim means, because dinosaurs are extinct, and if you look in a dictionary you'll find that extinct means no longer in existence.
kennethamy;171226 wrote:
if the claim that dinosaurs are alive in the year 2010 is meant, then that claim is false.
There is nothing in the world, or at least on Earth, which is a dinosaur, is there? Therefore dinosaurs do not exist. So, dinosaurs have gone from existence to nonexistence, and the converse constantly occurs, things come into existence, from nonexistence.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:20 am
@kennethamy,
As far I can tell birds are dinosaurs. so its in fact true to say that dinosaurs still exist in 2010...but even if they were dead, given once they existed as being alive, they will always exist from that time on...they refer and can be referred, simple !
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:27 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;171231 wrote:
As far I can tell birds are dinosaurs.
You're incorrect, dinosaurs had teeth.
Fil. Albuquerque;171231 wrote:
even if they were dead, given once they existed as being alive, they will always exist from that time on...they refer and can be referred, simple !
What about the millions of years during which there were no referrers? And what about the asymmetricality, I couldn't be referred to in the 19th century and dinosaurs couldn't be referred to before there were any.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:32 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171230 wrote:
Obviously that's not what the claim means, because dinosaurs are extinct, and if you look in a dictionary you'll find that extinct means no longer in existence.There is nothing in the world, or at least on Earth, which is a dinosaur, is there? Therefore dinosaurs do not exist. So, dinosaurs have gone from existence to nonexistence, and the converse constantly occurs, things come into existence, from nonexistence.


I think that "extinct" means, "no longer exists" where "exist" means "alive". There is nothing in the world in 2010 which is a dinosaur, but as I think you know, that does not mean that there is nothing in the world in X b.c. that is a dinosaur, since that would not be true (given a suitable date-substitution for X b.c.). You really have to index to time worlds, since "worlds" is ambiguous at to time-slices. It would be as if you were to say, that it is not raining. It is a convention that when no time or place is specified we simply assume the present time and the present place. So, my that convention, it is certainly true that there are not dinosaurs in the world (in 2010). That is really the best I can do. Indeed, I think that is the best that can be done. There is no such place as non-existence, do not merely dinosaurs, but nothing else can go there. If you mean that at one time dinosaurs did not exist, but that at a later time, dinosaurs did exist, but that in 2101 dinosaurs do not exist, I will happily agree with you. It is, I think, best for sanity if not for truth, that we do not talk of existence and non-existence as places where objects can appear or not appear. To talk that way is to talk in that peculiar language called "philosophese". It requires translation into English. I have done that for you.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:40 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;171234 wrote:
there is nothing in the world in X b.c. that is a dinosaur, since that would not be true
Your grammar isn't english, one hundred million years before present, there were things in the world which were dinosaurs. It's not the case that there are dinosaurs in the past, the construction is grammatically nonsensical. So it's not the case that dinosaurs exist, however you cut it, it's the case that dinosaurs existed. There was a period when there were dinosaurs, which is to say that dinosaurs existed, before and after this period there were and are no dinosaurs, so dinosaurs came into and went out of existence. Their status changed from nonexistent to existing and back to nonexistent.
davidm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:49 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171238 wrote:
Your grammar isn't english, one hundred million years before present, there were things in the world which were dinosaurs. It's not the case that there are dinosaurs in the past, the construction is grammatically nonsensical. So it's not the case that dinosaurs exist, however you cut it, it's the case that dinosaurs existed. There was a period when there were dinosaurs, which is to say that dinosaurs existed, before and after this period there were and are no dinosaurs, so dinosaurs came into and went out of existence. Their status changed from nonexistent to existing and back to nonexistent.


On the eternalist view of time, the past, present and future all exist; i.e., all locations in time exist just as all locations in space exist. What we call "now" is analogous to what we call "here" -- simply when/where we happen to find ourselves, subjectively, in the spacetime continuum.

On this account, dinosaurs exist. They don't exist NOW, but they exist when they exist, in the past (relative to us) which itself exists.

The eternalist would say that to deny the existence of dinosaurs, because they exist in the past, would be like denying the existence of Boston, because one happens to be in New York.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:03 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171238 wrote:
Your grammar isn't english, one hundred million years before present, there were things in the world which were dinosaurs. It's not the case that there are dinosaurs in the past, the construction is grammatically nonsensical. So it's not the case that dinosaurs exist, however you cut it, it's the case that dinosaurs existed. There was a period when there were dinosaurs, which is to say that dinosaurs existed, before and after this period there were and are no dinosaurs, so dinosaurs came into and went out of existence. Their status changed from nonexistent to existing and back to nonexistent.


It is the case that there were dinosaurs in the past, that that is what is meant when I say that in the year so-and-so, b.c. there are dinosaurs. The verb "to be" is being used tenselessly as it is in the statement that 2 + 2 are 4 . And that is English. There was a period when dinosaurs lived, and then there is this (later) period when dinosaurs no longer live. There is no such status as either existent or non-existent, although there is such a status as alive or not alive. The term, "exists" is not a predicate, and existence is not a property of objects. To think that existence is a status is to think that existence is a property. It isn't a property, and it isn't a status if "status" means, "state of being" which, I suspect it does mean. As J.L. Austin remarked, "existence is not like breathing only quieter".
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:04 am
@davidm,
davidm;171239 wrote:
On this account, dinosaurs exist. They don't exist NOW, but they exist when they exist, in the past (relative to us) which itself exists.
No doubt an eternalist thinks that you exist as a baby, but it's quite clear that you are not a baby, otherwise you would be unable to post to this board. I guess the eternalist also contends that you're not alive, almost completely, as the portion of time during which you are alive is a negligible fraction of the total, if there is one.

---------- Post added 05-31-2010 at 11:07 PM ----------

kennethamy;171242 wrote:
The verb "to be" is being used tenselessly as it is in the statement that 2 + 2 are 4 . And that is English.
Tell me more, "dinosaurs exist" is an equivalent proposition to "2+2 are 4"?
davidm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:09 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171243 wrote:
No doubt an eternalist thinks that you exist as a baby, but it's quite clear that you are not a baby, otherwise you would be unable to post to this board. I guess the eternalist also contends that you're not alive, almost completely, as the portion of time during which you are alive is a negligible fraction of the total, if there is one.


No, the eternalist account is fully coherent, whether you accept it or not. The eternalist says that the person I call "myself" who is currently typing this message to you is a 3D cross-section or slice of an eternally existing 4D object that is spread out through space and time, with my boundary conditions birth and death. Thus, just as I have spatial parts, so too I have temporal parts. The temporal part of me designated "baby" is that part of my spatiotemporally extended body that exists in the year when I am in fact a baby.

Think of a spatial analogy: the Great Wall of China. Designate some arbitrary point on it, and insist that it's the only part of the Wall that actually exists. But in fact the whole wall is an object radically extended through space. So too (says the eternalist) we are all radically extended through time. I have baby parts, adolescent parts, adult parts, old age parts, etc.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:10 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171243 wrote:
No doubt an eternalist thinks that you exist as a baby, but it's quite clear that you are not a baby, otherwise you would be unable to post to this board. I guess the eternalist also contends that you're not alive, almost completely, as the portion of time during which you are alive is a negligible fraction of the total, if there is one.


Unless X exists as a baby, X could not exist as an adult. (Unless you suppose that adults spring forth already grown up). To say that X "exists as a baby" is merely to say that the baby X exists in the year so-and-so. (The statement that X exists (tout court) is an incomplete statement. It requires a date of some kind to complete it. That is why the sentence "X exists" or "X is alive" does not have a truth value.
0 Replies
 
davidm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:11 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171243 wrote:
I guess the eternalist also contends that you're not alive, almost completely, as the portion of time during which you are alive is a negligible fraction of the total, if there is one.


That's right. The eternalist picture is that the universe is just an existing block of spacetime. All locations in past, present and future exist, just as all locations in space exist. For an incredibly tiny portion of that existent whole my world line exists embedded in block space time, its temporal boundaries my birth and death.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:16 am
@davidm,
davidm;171248 wrote:
That's right. The eternalist picture is that the universe is just an existing block of spacetime. All locations in past, present and future exist, just as all locations in space exist. For an incredibly tiny portion of that existent whole my world line exists embedded in block space time, its temporal boundaries my birth and death.


The next question, of course, is why anyone would think that the eternalist picture, as you call it, would not be true?
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:16 am
@davidm,
davidm;171246 wrote:
I have baby parts, adolescent parts, adult parts, old age parts, etc.
Are you a baby?
.
.
.
.
.

---------- Post added 05-31-2010 at 11:19 PM ----------

kennethamy;171247 wrote:
That is why the sentence "X exists" or "X is alive" does not have a truth value.
So, it's not the case that there is some thing that exists, in which case, the statement "nothing can go from not existing to existing" seems particularly meaningless.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:19 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171250 wrote:
Are you a baby?
.
.
.
.
.


Res ipsa loquitur. A car has wheel parts. Is it even sensible to ask whether a car is a wheel?
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
Paradigm shifts - Question by Cyracuz
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 04/30/2025 at 09:21:58