Why does God permit evil????

Did God create evil as a way of realising goodness?? God is supreme and the ultimate in accountability for good and evil is his (The buck really really stops with him)

My arguments have become repetitive but they are still logical, its just that you don't understand why they are illogical. It could be that Im not explaining myself sufficiently or it could be your not capable of understanding. You tell me why its not logical to think this question is illogical.

But I did not complain about your arguments being repetitive. I complained about your arguments being non-existent. What is your argument that God, His Power, and His goodness, are logically incompatibile?

So what of my repetitive arguments dont you understand? If I have stated them often enough you should be able to say why my argument is not logical. I will try putting this way....I make perfect cars...they dont break down ever for whatever reason, they are indestructible...would you buy car breakdown insurance?

How are those three incompatible. What is the argument? Don't give me an analogy about cars. I don't understand the point you are making. Let me repeat: give me an argument. Premises and conclusion. Don't praise logic, use it. How is God incompatible with His power and his goodness? (Are you sure you know what "incompatible" means?) You don't have repetitive arguments. You have no arguments at all.

I assume you are purposely inventing them for faiths sake.

So if he knew the consequences of his creation, why would he continue with it?

If god knew his creation would result in evil and suffering he is culpable to the crimes.

...he could have made them perfect.

We cannot say the God permits either good or evil without first defining what really IS good and evil to him.

I've moved way beyond faith friend... Having lost faith, I started searching for answers. I found those answers... in the pain and suffering of tragedy.



Before the birth of my son, I knew he would face challenges in his life. I knew he would fail and succeed. I knew he would be tempted. I knew he would lie. I knew he would cry. I knew he would be hurt. I knew he would find joy.

I knew that his life would be his life... not mine. For my son to have his life, he must face his existence.



Am I culpable for my son falling off his bicycle and scraping his knee? Does my son respect the bicycle more or less because of it?



He did. We are perfect for moving towards perfection. What is the more noble quest, to be given the silver spoon at birth, or to earn the silver spoon by trial and error? Which silver spoon will be valued more?

...he did create evil and he is responsible for it.

I have arguments you might not think them repetitive or logical but I do have arguments otherwise you would not have opposed them for days on end. How can you make such strange claims when you involved yourself in them. If by now you don't or dont want to understand them, nothing I wil say will change your view. Try reading what I have written previously and you might just rediscover the argument you had reason to dispute.

No, we've been over this. God did not create Evil. He created other beings, and they created Evil. A perfect being can allow imperfection. Only an imperfect being insists upon perfection... probably because they subconsciously want to be God themselves.

---------- Post added 01-30-2010 at 10:02 AM ----------

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IF my son commits murder... By your logic, that means that I committed the murder.

No, we've been over this. God did not create Evil. He created other beings, and they created Evil. A perfect being can allow imperfection. Only an imperfect being insists upon perfection... probably because they subconsciously want to be God themselves.

---------- Post added 01-30-2010 at 10:02 AM ----------

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IF my son commits murder... By your logic, that means that I committed the murder.

Since you have had no arguments, how could I have opposed them? What I have been criticizing is the absence of argument. Do you know what an argument is? An argument has premise(s) and a conclusion. What are your premises, and what is your conclusion? Alll you keep saying is that something or other is incompatible (sometimes you use the term, "illogical") But you never even try to argue that is so.

---------- Post added 01-30-2010 at 11:42 AM ----------



Yes. God created earthquakes, and earthquakes chose to do evil. Is that right? Your son is not like an earthquake. Your son makes his own choices. Earthquakes make no choices.

God created earthquakes, and earthquakes chose to do evil. Is that right?

Your son is not like an earthquake. Your son makes his own choices. Earthquakes make no choices.

God created man with the ability to commit evil its his creation.

Man was created with the natural ability to commit evil , you cant escape his intentions.

Your son was not created by you , your not his creator.

Hi,

"I am aware that there have been previous threads along this line, but I wrongly posted it as a statement instead of a question"

Did God create evil as a way of realising goodness?? God is supreme and the ultimate in accountability for good and evil is his (The buck really really stops with him)

Why did God stand back and do nothing during the holocuast?

Why does God permit natural catastrophes like the tsunami that killed 250 thousand people recently?

Why does God create an entity like a virus that does nothing but kill its host?

Etc Etc

Ive explained why the three are not logical and I have asked why you think it is logical. Now you explain why it is logical?

I'd say that integrating evil in God's plans (God works for a greater good) is the best alternative a theist have (invoking 'free will' or refusing to answer the question are certainly weaker alternatives).

Free Will explains the existence of Evil. Greater Good is one possible result from Pain and Suffering. Pain/Suffering are not synonymous with Evil.

No one says that pain and suffering are synonymous with evil. Only that pain and suffering are evils. Do you disagree with that?

Greater good is one possible result from pain and suffering. But greater bad is also possible from pain and suffering.

Yes I disagree with that. P&S are P&S... P is P and S is S... E is something completely different.



Yes, greater bad can also result from P&S. But greater bad will eventually subside, making way for greater good. The goodness will always triumph in the end, and perhaps, the greater the bad... the greater the end good will be.

Can't fire engines be red, and yet fire engines are completely different from red?

To say that x is y need not mean that x and y are the same. It may just mean that x is a case of y.

My goodness! How do you know all that. And how did you find that out?

No. That is not "right".

God created a realm where imperfection could exist. Earthquakes are a part of that creation... but earthquakes are not that creation. A potato is not a stew.

And we both know that earthquakes cannot "choose". Thus earthquakes in-and-of themselves are not Evil. Nor are they capable of expressing Evil.

This discussion simply asks, "Could God create an imperfect realm without the need for earthquakes (tragedy)?"... "Was God required to create it with tragedy"... And if he was required to do it that way, "Does that demonstrate a limited power of God?".

Those are very legitimate questions. I've asked them myself. But that does not automatically lead to the conclusion that "God's power is limited". There may be other answers worthy of just as much consideration as the common reasoning of egotistical humans. Humans that pre-suppose that they can know the mind of an omnipotent God.

If we are to reasonably examine the mind of a God, then we must attempt to step outside of our human reasoning to do so. Practically impossible! More impossible than my dog understanding why I lock him in the back yard to take a shite, instead of allowing him to decorate my sofa inside. He may not understand, but that does not conclude no good reasoning behind the homeowners standards.

My dog knows nothing of maintaining a human home. He is incapable of doing so. Shall he think me Evil for sending him out to the cold?

Why is this so difficult to understand? It's not always about comfort... yet humans insist that it is. But I know, comfort can lead to weakness, decadence, and all manner of vile and disgusting behaviors. Likewise, pain and suffering can lead to strength, nobility, and character. Move towards the pain my friends... for in that pain, tucked deep beneath the surface of suffering, a foundation of existence is discovered. Upon that foundation, knowledge of a previously unknown reality of physical existence is presented to us. We don't have to like it... but we would do well to accept it. Yes, sometimes Truth can seem a horrible monster. Yet seeing that monster for what it really is... for what it really really is in actual reality... we discover a false specter, a phantom... a ghost we call Ego.

Exposing that ghost is a treasure unavailable to those who consider pain and suffering as Evil, when in actuality, it is Evil not to do so. Is that not the perfect Evil, the Evil that tempts our Ego to pass judgment upon that which we cannot possibly understand?



Then you've missed my analogy, that being:

Why would I knowingly birth my child into an imperfect realm where he definitely would experience pain and suffering? Is this not the same consideration as to why God would knowingly bring us into an imperfect world? A world where he knows we will definitely experience pain and suffering.

Lucifer was originally considered God's perfect creation. An angel more beautiful than all the others... Is that not what I should also want for my son? Yet, by being created as perfect, and into a perfect realm, Lucifer abandoned his perfection in trade for expressing Pride. Would that not also be the fate of my son if he was created in the same manner?

Why would I want that for my son? Why would I want my son to reject me as his father?

I thank God for creating me as an imperfect being in an imperfect universe. Perhaps I will not suffer the same affliction of Pride as Lucifer did. Perhaps in my lacking comfort, I will pursue true comfort from the only one who is capable of providing it for me. Perhaps I will pursue my father in respect, rather than in ignorant judgment.

---------- Post added 01-30-2010 at 01:21 PM ----------



God created man with the propensity to express free will. Man's free will created Evil.

Will you hold the Potter accountable to the actions of the one who uses the Pot? She may throw it out of anger... does this make the Potter guilty of anger too?



Man was also created with the natural ability to commit good too. By your same shallow logic, I can now claim that God created goodness. You can't escape his intentions... right? Wrong!

God did not "intend" that we were to be good or evil. You can't get past that. !!!GOD IS NOT A PUPPET MASTER!!! and !!!WE ARE NOT HIS PUPPETS!!!

We are Free Will Entities... And I personally thank God for that.

God's only "intentions" were to give Lucifer a realm that he could exist with his Pride, and also, through Humans, give Lucifer a vehicle for expressing himself within the imperfect realm. Humans also have the ability to express God as well... Like I said, we are unique in our ability to express either, through our own Free Will. It is God who gave us the right to choose for ourselves.



Heh... My son creates himself, with every thought and action he pursues. I was the one who brought him into physical existence though. He would not know the joy of Free Will otherwise.