Why does God permit evil????

@xris,

xris;123299 wrote:

Its not about scriptures , its about logic.

Well you are holding the "scriptural God" accountable to this question. I've attempted to define my own Truth/Info/Signal/God, and support it with logic but you seem to pay that no mind.

xris;123299 wrote:

I see that Satan is beyond gods will, I would be happy if you could just confirm that.

Confirmed. Just like your will is "beyond gods will". A perfect being will allow imperfection to exist, but not necessarily exist within the same perfect realm as the perfect being. God created the physical realm so that imperfection would have a place to exist.

xris;123299 wrote:

It would mean that you think the question posed is not relevant, it would indicate you think god is not all powerful.....interesting....

Having the ability to stop something is different than having the will to stop something. A perfect being can allow imperfection to exist.

_________________________________________

And, if it's logic you want, I have previously offered the logic of etymology, science, philosophy and Information Theory... What have others offered beyond mere judgmental opinions? Beyond Pride-full speculations, what has the opposition offered?

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

now lets get it straight...god allowed satan to rule ? he knew he would revolt and turn to the dark side? are you sure, really really sure?

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;123304 wrote:

now lets get it straight...god allowed satan to rule ?

Perhaps I should not have said "then This World belongs to Satan" when what I meant was "This Physical Realm was created for Satan".

The essence of my comments suggest that this physical realm was created to allow Satan to express Pride that was unacceptable in the Immaterial Realm of Purity. Yes, I think the physical realm was specifically created to give Satan the physical/material home allowing his Pride of Free Will to exist.

But Satan obviously does not "rule" the physical realm. Otherwise notions of Truth, Compassion, Empathy would not be allowed. Satan is capable of expressing the Pride that is disallowed in the Immaterial Realm, just like Humans are. It is no secret that every great spiritual teaching is one of overcoming the Human Ego.

__________________________

I also said, that Humanity may be "Gods Caveat" a free will agent that is capable of expressing both Good and Evil within the Material realm initially created for Satan. God can still enter Satans realm where Satan cannot enter Gods realm. But Mankind is not under the dominion of God or Satan. In fact, God gave dominion over the Earth to Adam. It is Mans choice then, to be a vehicle of expressing Good or Evil, Purity or Deception, God or Satan into this physical realm.

It is Mans eternal destiny to become the very essence of what he expresses during this physical life... Man is a unique creature, being both from Energy and Matter of the Material Realm and also a specific quantity of Pure Information (DNA) of the Immaterial Realm. Only the Information (DNA) separates us from a common Rock.

That initial source of Information got us started. But we also have the ability to author New Information... Authoring our very Essence beyond the initial proto essence. It's Gods way of teaching Satan, that although he's created a Material Realm for Satan to exist, that Mankind holds the secret to releasing himself from it, and rejoining God ultimately in the Realm of Pure Information... The Realm of QuintEssence. The Realm of QuinticNon... The unknowable Fifth Unknown.

Our ability to Author is an expression of our Divinity upon the Material Realm of Energy and Matter. Energy and Matter (Entropy) are simply Noise on the Line (deception) that prevents our Divinity from being realized.

---------- Post added 01-28-2010 at 03:33 PM ----------

____________________________________________________

More on this... (my turn for speculative opinion)

Proto Essence: Perhaps, in creating a physical realm for Satan, God was demonstrating his ability to create new realms that were far and away different from his own, yet still within his capacity to house them... Like a parent owns a house, but allows their teenager to decorate their own room any way they like...

If Evil is Entropy, and Entropy is Matter, and Matter is under the dominion of Chaos, and Chaos is just Random Floating Particles... well, that's just like Static... Noise... You can see a representation of Noise on an un-tuned Television... The entire physical universe is made from That Stuff...

But the Caveat was a single sprinkle of Proto-Essence... That initial quantity of Information which created the first DNA bearing life form... Since God created this physical realm, it should be no surprise that he could take a small quantity of Matter and assemble it into a Code (DNA)... A code that brought forth physical life... A hybrid life form that consisted of a precise mixture of Energy, Matter, and... Information.

Only the Information Evolves... The physical structure of a life form obeys the direction of Information. That one sprinkle of proto-essence is what got physical life started in a realm of physical Static. The Static is the Trap... The Static is the Physical Realm made for Satan. The Information is the caveat that allows God to be expressed into the physical realm.

Satan is stuck in the Static... He has not the ability to Author Physicality to obey his desires. God can direct physicality... by creating a physical realm... And Man can direct physicality... By assembling it to form a written language upon... Thereby expressing Immaterial Thought (Pure Information) upon the Physical Realm of Static. Static cannot author anything into or from physical Energy and Matter. Man can Author, and bend physicality to suit his desires.

______________________________

So yes, when we die... physically die, we either become part of the Eternal Realm of Pure Information, or we become part of the Realm of Pure Static... It all depends upon how much our own Authored Essence matches up with either one.

3 Replies

@QuinticNon,

Sorry but its a bit too much for me this certainty. I asked a simple question, did god allow Satan to be supreme. He knew? Just make it simple this religious rhetoric has no effect on me.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;123332 wrote:

Sorry but its a bit too much for me this certainty. I asked a simple question, did god allow Satan to be supreme. He knew? Just make it simple this religious rhetoric has no effect on me.

I already answered that question. I said, "But Satan obviously does not "rule" the physical realm". And then I gave numerous reasons to support my claim.

And what "religious rhetoric" are you speaking of? I'm equating God as Information and Satan as Static. I speak clearly in terms of Information Theory (static, noise, info, entropy...) I can't help it if the Bible happens to coincide. The Bhagavad-Gita also coincides as well... The only difference is that Christians think you get one time around in the physical realm and Hindus say you get multiple times around, progressively moving higher or lower as a hybrid life form consisting of Information and Matter.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;123216 wrote:

Ive read this three times and I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say..are you agreeing its gods fault?

Fault??
Blame???
Who????

:shocked:

Actually, I am drawing a parallel between an evolutionary advance in our species and the Biblical story of Adam and Eve. I have been thinking about some of the ways that humans are different from animals, and looking for a central quality or attribute that can be said to be the central difference. The best word that I can find in the English language is "creativity".

As I see it, all creature's physical attributes and their behavior have always been subject to the pressures of natural selection. What a creature eats and how it gets food, courtship behavior, social status and interaction, and all other aspects of life are subject to very slow change, unless there is a catastrophic change in the environment. (Say, the introduction of Asian carp to the Great Lakes, or a long-term change in the climate.) Then, creatures must either adapt, or as more often happens, they die off because they cannot adapt quickly enough.

What we humans have, however, is the ability to transcend this slow process by using our creative ability to, for example, form a mental model of the world and then to put together knowledge from our own experience and communicated from others. This ability has allowed us to develop the means to live in nearly any environment on earth, and for individuals to travel from one environment to another by using their wits to adapt. It has also given us the ability to develop science and technology, which gives us more power.

This creative ability (for want of a better phrase) also gives us the ability to do things that are either very beneficial to our fellow humans and to the rest of life on Earth, or are detrimental to the same, and all levels in between. This is what i refer to as the "knowledge of both good and evil," or "the fruit of that tree."

So, what we have is a great advancement in human capacity. Because we have "been given" the capacity to create great works of art and architecture, and to develop space travel, computers and other wonderful things, we are also able to use that capacity to develop the atomic bomb, and devise clever means of torture, and economic systems that lock some people into poverty while other control great resources "for their own benefit." In other word, we have knowledge and capacity for good and evil, while animals, and the evolutionary precursors of humans, do not.

I suggest that those evolutionary precursors of the first truly creative humans made it clear that "Adam and Eve" were no longer welcome in the tribe. Part of that particular family ended up being forced out of the "Garden" (somewhere around Etiopia, perhaps?) and went off to populate the rest of the world. Perhaps some stayed behind to eventually become the dominant species in the homeland.

So, I leave it to you to consider: If one believes that this capacity was given to us by God, then one also knows that with it God gave us the guidance to use that capacity in ways that would benefit man and his world. While each of us must choose when and whether to pay attention to that guidance, religion helps to encourage and inculcate those ethical principles into its followers. It gives a standard of ethics and the motivation to follow it.

On the other hand, if you believe that we developed this capacity through a purely material process of evolution, then we each have to muddle through the development of our own ethics and hope that our fellow humans treat us with some semblance of ethical behavior. We can use classrooms and forums and other such institutions to discuss and possibly agree on what is right and wrong, but the Machiavellians and Nietzscheans will dominate and have their way with the rest.

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;123313 wrote:

"This Physical Realm was created for Satan".

The essence of my comments suggest that this physical realm was created to allow Satan to express Pride that was unacceptable in the Immaterial Realm of Purity. Yes, I think the physical realm was specifically created to give Satan the physical/material home allowing his Pride of Free Will to exist.

But Satan obviously does not "rule" the physical realm. Otherwise notions of Truth, Compassion, Empathy would not be allowed. Satan is capable of expressing the Pride that is disallowed in the Immaterial Realm, just like Humans are. It is no secret that every great spiritual teaching is one of overcoming the Human Ego.
__________________________

I also said, that Humanity may be "Gods Caveat" a free will agent that is capable of expressing both Good and Evil within the Material realm initially created for Satan. God can still enter Satans realm where Satan cannot enter Gods realm. But Mankind is not under the dominion of God or Satan. In fact, God gave dominion over the Earth to Adam. It is Mans choice then, to be a vehicle of expressing Good or Evil, Purity or Deception, God or Satan into this physical realm.

It is Mans eternal destiny to become the very essence of what he expresses during this physical life... Man is a unique creature, being both from Energy and Matter of the Material Realm and also a specific quantity of Pure Information (DNA) of the Immaterial Realm. Only the Information (DNA) separates us from a common Rock.

That initial source of Information got us started. But we also have the ability to author New Information... Authoring our very Essence beyond the initial proto essence. It's Gods way of teaching Satan, that although he's created a Material Realm for Satan to exist, that Mankind holds the secret to releasing himself from it, and rejoining God ultimately in the Realm of Pure Information... The Realm of QuintEssence. The Realm of QuinticNon... The unknowable Fifth Unknown.

Our ability to Author is an expression of our Divinity upon the Material Realm of Energy and Matter. Energy and Matter (Entropy) are simply Noise on the Line (deception) that prevents our Divinity from being realized.

What you are saying has an interesting parallel to what I was thinking when I composed my most recent post. (I had not yet read your last several posts.) What you call "the ability to author New Information... Authoring our very Essence beyond the initial proto essence." I was attempting to express a similar (or the same) concept with the phrase "creative capacity".

I believe that one channel through which God, "the Divine Essence", has given us information is the beings which I refer to as the Manifestations of God. I see them as pure spirits which are perfect receivers of the Divine signal. They translate the information from the realm of Purity into a semi-stable form, the spoken and written word. This "codified" instruction in turn helps us learn to attune our spirits to the divine signal, so that we are better able to distinguish the signal from the noise of pride. So praying and reading the scriptures (for me, that would be the Baha'i prayers and writings in particular) causes our spirits to resonate at a frequency closer to that of the Divine signal, and helps us to distinguish that signal (the "promptings of the Holy Spirit") from the noise of pride (the "whisperings of Satan.")

QuinticNon;123313 wrote:

So yes, when we die... physically die, we either become part of the Eternal Realm of Pure Information, or we become part of the Realm of Pure Static... It all depends upon how much our own Authored Essence matches up with either one.

But why only two realms? Though it may disagree with standard Christian cosmology, it seems to me that there are many realms in between. Progress in this realm towards consistently tuning into and acting in accordance with Divine information determines what realm we will proceed to in the next life. I don't see this in terms of reward and punishment so much as placement at the appropriate level for your continued advancement. One may obtain great joy in residing in a realm in which the signal is very clear, or great remorse at finding one's self in a realm of significant static, which would be a sort of Heaven and Hell. To me, the level may be partly dependent on how much pure information one is ready to process. The more practice here in the physical realm, the greater our capacity in the next.

1 Reply

@1CellOfMany,

1CellOfMany;123369 wrote:

Actually, I am drawing a parallel between an evolutionary advance in our species and the Biblical story of Adam and Eve.

That "advance" is Written Language.

1CellOfMany;123369 wrote:

the ways that humans are different from animals...the central difference...is "creativity".

Creativity made possible by Written Language.

Creativity is a product of Mind, and it needs a physical/material mechanism to operate upon. That mechanism is Written Language, which comes in many forms. Any Image/Object association is a form of Written Language... Thus, a primitive statue (created by Man) can represent a concept of God just like Architectural Plans can represent a House.

Written Language is the physical mechanism that allows an immaterial Thought to be expressed as Creativity. We reach out and mold the Static of Chaos, forming it into an alphabet. We arrange that alphabet to represent the thoughts from our mind. We are capable of Creating a Submarine or a Bridge on paper with Code, before the actual Object ever exists in physical reality. In fact, the Object could not exists in physical reality unless we Planned it out in advance with Codified Description (Language).

1CellOfMany;123369 wrote:

What we humans have, however, is the ability to transcend this slow process by using our creative ability to, for example, form a mental model of the world and then to put together knowledge from our own experience and communicated from others.

Written Language is the only mechanism that allows Thought Experience to be Communicated to others. Written Language is the mechanism, the tool we use to express Creativity.

1CellOfMany;123369 wrote:

This creative ability (for want of a better phrase)...

The "wanted phrase" is Written Language.

1CellOfMany;123369 wrote:

This is what i refer to as the "knowledge of both good and evil," or "the fruit of that tree."

Yes, with Written Language came the Knowledge of Good and Evil... Dualism was born, and Image/Object relationships had been established.

1CellOfMany;123369 wrote:

So, what we have is a great advancement in human capacity.

Yes, I believe Written Language was the last Evolutionary change of Mankind, about 6,500 years ago... the same approximate age of Adam/Eve.

1CellOfMany;123369 wrote:

Because we have "been given" the capacity to create great works of art and architecture, and to develop space travel, computers and other wonderful things, we are also able to use that capacity to develop the atomic bomb, and devise clever means of torture, and economic systems that lock some people into poverty while other control great resources "for their own benefit."

Written Language makes all that Creativity possible. But was it given to us, or did we take it from the Tree? God warned that "You will die".

1CellOfMany;123369 wrote:

In other word, we have knowledge and capacity for good and evil, while animals, and the evolutionary precursors of humans, do not.

Yes, we have Written Language... and no other creature on the planet does.

1CellOfMany;123369 wrote:

If one believes that this capacity was given to us by God, then one also knows that with it God gave us the guidance to use that capacity in ways that would benefit man and his world.

Given by God or Taken from Satan? God said no, and warned us of death. Satan said yes, "for your eyes will be opened to see as God sees"... We became like God on that great day of the Fall... for both of us could form Pure Thought into Written Language and bend the Physical Realm to fit our desires

Humans themselves are products of Written Language. We are the product of our Genetic Code... A Written Language that pre-defines us before we ever even exist, just like a Recipe can pre-define a cupcake before it ever exists.

All Codes have Sentient Authors.

0 Replies

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;123313 wrote:

"This Physical Realm was created for Satan".

The essence of my comments suggest that this physical realm was created to allow Satan to express Pride that was unacceptable in the Immaterial Realm of Purity. Yes, I think the physical realm was specifically created to give Satan the physical/material home allowing his Pride of Free Will to exist.

But Satan obviously does not "rule" the physical realm. Otherwise notions of Truth, Compassion, Empathy would not be allowed. Satan is capable of expressing the Pride that is disallowed in the Immaterial Realm, just like Humans are. It is no secret that every great spiritual teaching is one of overcoming the Human Ego.
__________________________

I also said, that Humanity may be "Gods Caveat" a free will agent that is capable of expressing both Good and Evil within the Material realm initially created for Satan. God can still enter Satans realm where Satan cannot enter Gods realm. But Mankind is not under the dominion of God or Satan. In fact, God gave dominion over the Earth to Adam. It is Mans choice then, to be a vehicle of expressing Good or Evil, Purity or Deception, God or Satan into this physical realm.

It is Mans eternal destiny to become the very essence of what he expresses during this physical life... Man is a unique creature, being both from Energy and Matter of the Material Realm and also a specific quantity of Pure Information (DNA) of the Immaterial Realm. Only the Information (DNA) separates us from a common Rock.

That initial source of Information got us started. But we also have the ability to author New Information... Authoring our very Essence beyond the initial proto essence. It's Gods way of teaching Satan, that although he's created a Material Realm for Satan to exist, that Mankind holds the secret to releasing himself from it, and rejoining God ultimately in the Realm of Pure Information... The Realm of QuintEssence. The Realm of QuinticNon... The unknowable Fifth Unknown.

Our ability to Author is an expression of our Divinity upon the Material Realm of Energy and Matter. Energy and Matter (Entropy) are simply Noise on the Line (deception) that prevents our Divinity from being realized.

What you are saying has an interesting parallel to what I was thinking when I composed my most recent post. (I had not yet read your last several posts.) What you call "the ability to author New Information... Authoring our very Essence beyond the initial proto essence." I was attempting to express a similar (or the same) concept with the phrase "creative capacity".

I believe that one channel through which God, "the Divine Essence", has given us information is the beings which I refer to as the Manifestations of God. I see them as pure spirits which are perfect receivers of the Divine signal. They translate the information from the realm of Purity into a semi-stable form, the spoken and written word. This "codified" instruction in turn helps us learn to attune our spirits to the divine signal, so that we are better able to distinguish the signal from the noise of pride. So praying and reading the scriptures (for me, that would be the Baha'i prayers and writings in particular) causes our spirits to resonate at a frequency closer to that of the Divine signal, and helps us to distinguish that signal (the "promptings of the Holy Spirit") from the noise of pride (the "whisperings of Satan.")

QuinticNon;123313 wrote:

So yes, when we die... physically die, we either become part of the Eternal Realm of Pure Information, or we become part of the Realm of Pure Static... It all depends upon how much our own Authored Essence matches up with either one.

But why only two realms? Though it may disagree with standard Christian cosmology, it seems to me that there are many realms in between. Progress in this realm towards consistently tuning into and acting in accordance with Divine information determines what realm we will proceed to in the next life. I don't see this in terms of reward and punishment so much as placement at the appropriate level for your continued advancement. One may obtain great joy in residing in a realm in which the signal is very clear, or great remorse at finding one's self in a realm of significant static, which would be a sort of Heaven and Hell, but with varying degrees. To me, the level may be partly dependent on how much pure information one is ready to process. The more practice here in the physical realm, the greater our capacity in the next.

0 Replies

@1CellOfMany,

1CellOfMany;123383 wrote:

I believe that one channel through which God, "the Divine Essence", has given us information is the beings which I refer to as the Manifestations of God. I see them as pure spirits which are perfect receivers of the Divine signal.

Yes, interesting.

1CellOfMany;123383 wrote:

They translate the information from the realm of Purity into a semi-stable form, the spoken and written word. This "codified" instruction in turn helps us learn to attune our spirits to the divine signal, so that we are better able to distinguish the signal from the noise of pride.

That well may be. My problem is that it cannot be discussed with empirical evidence. The notion is fine for two Spiritualists to discuss, but falls short on hard evidence when discussing with hard Materialists.

1CellOfMany;123383 wrote:

So praying and reading the scriptures (for me, that would be the Baha'i prayers and writings in particular) causes our spirits to resonate at a frequency closer to that of the Divine signal, and helps us to distinguish that signal (the "promptings of the Holy Spirit") from the noise of pride (the "whisperings of Satan.")

Again, that very well could be the case. But I take it one step further, considering Noise as a physical object. Noise is Matter, and worshiping it is worshiping a Physical Deception... thus, as the Biblical scriptures say:

The Beast is Deception... The Image of the Beast is Physical Matter. Both contribute to Information Entropy.

Revelation 14:9
"...If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God..."

Rev 13:14
"...that they should make an image to the beast which had the wound by a sword and did live..."

Rev 13:15
"...and he had power to give life unto the image of the beast ... the beast should both speak and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed..."

Rev 14:11
"... they shall have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image..."

Rev 15:2
"...a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast and his image, and his mark and the number of his name stand on the sea of glass having harps of God..."

Rev 16:2
"... first vial .. .a noisome and grievous sore on the men which had the mark of the beast and upon them that worshiped his image..."

Rev 19:20
"... the beast, the false prophet, them that worshiped his image ... cast alive into the lake of fire..."

Rev 20:4
"... I saw thrones ... and the souls of them beheaded for witness of Jesus, for God's word and who had not worshipped the beast or his image or received his mark ... they lived and reigned 1000 years with Christ..."

It's all about separating the Medium from the Message.

1CellOfMany;123383 wrote:

But why only two realms? Though it may disagree with standard Christian cosmology, it seems to me that there are many realms in between.

Well that could be. But I only see empirical evidence for two realms. The Material Realm, and the Immaterial Realm. There may be more, but I don't see any evidence for them.

1CellOfMany;123383 wrote:

I don't see this in terms of reward and punishment so much as placement at the appropriate level for your continued advancement.

I do as well.

1CellOfMany;123383 wrote:

One may obtain great joy in residing in a realm in which the signal is very clear, or great remorse at finding one's self in a realm of significant static, which would be a sort of Heaven and Hell.

The problem with Static, is that it cannot Author... It cannot Create anything beyond itself. That would indeed be a living Hell.

1CellOfMany;123383 wrote:

To me, the level may be partly dependent on how much pure information one is ready to process.

Not only process... but also to Author anew. Humans receive Information, and Humans also Create Information out of thin air. Bhartrihari suggests that we open the physical realm to Brahman by speaking. Christianity reminds us that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God... And the Word became Flesh". The Jewish Faith suggests that God Spoke the Universe into existence... "And God SAID, Let there Be!..." Buddhists encourage us to follow The Way... The Way It Is... The Way to put a Thing together is to Follow the Instructions... The Way is Pure Information.

---------- Post added 01-28-2010 at 10:16 PM ----------

___________________________________________

I'll give you an example of Worshiping the Beast and His Image.

Money... Cash... Is supposed to be an Image of Value. A Dollar is a Note, with no inherent Value of its own. It is only representative of a Stash of Value in the form of a Gold Reserve, (the Beast). But, now we have a situation of Global Economic collapse because Loans have been secured by the Value of other Loans, creating a situation where we think the Dollar Bill has Value unto itself, rather than representing Value. We are deceived into thinking that a Dollar has any Value when in fact it does not.

Now it's getting even worse... because we don't even need Dollars to fake Value any longer. A simple click on a keyboard can Create Imaginary Value at the behest of the Federal Reserve... They actually have us believing that they've somehow magically created more Wealth out of thin air, and by doing so, everything will be alright.

This is a purely Evil Deception, and it will Devour itself starting with its own tail.

Worshiping the Beast and His Image is also the goal of any good advertising campaign. Remember when AOL wanted you to think that they were the Internet, rather than just a gateway into the Internet?

Apple wants us to believe that the IPod IS Entertainment, rather than a gateway to Entertainment.

I ask you for a KleenX, when any old tissue will do. Shall I complain when you hand me a Puffs? I should not equate KleenX or Puffs with the essence of Tissue.

I can walk into any copy shop in the world and ask for a Xerox... but I cannot ask for a Canon, or Ricoh, or Minolta, or Kyocera... Xerox has become synonymous with the essence of Copy. But Xerox is no more a copy than any of the others. It is only a mechanism to allow copying.

This Image/Object Dualism has fused our minds into believing Deception is Truth. It permeates every corner of our feeble culture.

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

I grew up in a Calvinist family. We used to go to church every week, tried not to use money on Sundays and like our neighbours walked to church. In the country-side the walking-routes still lead to the local church. My great-grandfather argued with his brothers and sisters about infants going to Hell if they weren't babtised before death. They split the church in two. This was 1943, during German occupation.

Now the church I grew up with merged with other protestant church-organisations, the buiding is converted to a theatre and this is the way minority religions come and go.

My argument: with a strict Calvinistic faith you don't worry 'bout evil, God himself is enough. I worried all the time doing something wrong. We didn't mix with Catholics or any other faith, thought we were predestinated.

In Dutch we call ourselves 'godsvrezend', God-fearing in English. Now-a-days there are more faithfull muslims in our country, but the PM and vice-PM's are still educatated a the Free University. Free meaning Reformed and we have a government of moderately strict christian democrats, social democrats and a sectarian party which doesn't allow women to be active in politics.:detective:

0 Replies

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;123342 wrote:

I already answered that question. I said, "But Satan obviously does not "rule" the physical realm". And then I gave numerous reasons to support my claim.

And what "religious rhetoric" are you speaking of? I'm equating God as Information and Satan as Static. I speak clearly in terms of Information Theory (static, noise, info, entropy...) I can't help it if the Bible happens to coincide. The Bhagavad-Gita also coincides as well... The only difference is that Christians think you get one time around in the physical realm and Hindus say you get multiple times around, progressively moving higher or lower as a hybrid life form consisting of Information and Matter.

I will ask you again did god allow Satan to be supreme? Did he invent Satan or did did he create himself. Did he know Satan would turn to the dark side? They are pretty simple questions could you please keep the replies just as simple. I really dont want references just your considered opinion.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;123478 wrote:

I will ask you again did god allow Satan to be supreme?

Xris, for the third time, I said,
"But Satan obviously does not "rule" the physical realm".

xris;123478 wrote:

Did he invent Satan or did did he create himself.

Invent? Well, I don't really know. I wasn't there. But the Biblical account suggests that God created all Angels... Including Lucifer. I've never heard an account where Lucifer created himself... But Lucifer (Satan) did reinvent himself by rebelling against God and embracing Pride.

xris;123478 wrote:

Did he know Satan would turn to the dark side?

I should think so. The Biblical God is supposed to be All Knowing and Omniscient.

xris;123478 wrote:

They are pretty simple questions could you please keep the replies just as simple.

There is nothing simple about these questions at all. The topic has been debated for centuries and we're still arguing about it. What simple?

xris;123478 wrote:

I really dont want references just your considered opinion.

My "considered opinion" is based upon my "references"... i.e. What I have studied across multiple disciplines. If my studies are not important to you, then my "considered opinions" are even less so.

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

So god created Lucifer and even at the time of his creation god new he would turn to the dark side and create havoc in the world of man. Do you think the whole story has been written ? written by god?

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;123531 wrote:

So god created Lucifer and even at the time of his creation god new he would turn to the dark side and create havoc in the world of man.

Yes, we've been over this. I fear your conclusions will force me to repeat myself further.

xris;123531 wrote:

Do you think the whole story has been written ?

Not Written... but Envisioned. The entire scenario has been envisioned by God before it ever happens. All is One with God... There is no Past, Present or Future in the Godly realm. Time is only for our Material realm.

xris;123531 wrote:

...written by god?

Envisioned... Conceived... But certainly not Written or Pre-Determined.

God knows, that all choices have consequences. Lucifer's choices, and Man's choices... all of them have consequences. But in those consequences, we must all come face to face with God. We must eventually answer for ourselves. Shameful to think that God must answer to us.

Think of it this Way. "All roads lead to Rome"... The smoothly paved roads, and the rocky treacherous roads... It doesn't matter, they all eventually lead us to realizing God as all powerful, omniscient, eternally loving and just beyond any human measure.

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;123550 wrote:

Yes, we've been over this. I fear your conclusions will force me to repeat myself further.

Not Written... but Envisioned. The entire scenario has been envisioned by God before it ever happens. All is One with God... There is no Past, Present or Future in the Godly realm. Time is only for our Material realm.

Envisioned... Conceived... But certainly not Written or Pre-Determined.

God knows, that all choices have consequences. Lucifer's choices, and Man's choices... all of them have consequences. But in those consequences, we must all come face to face with God. We must eventually answer for ourselves. Shameful to think that God must answer to us.

Think of it this Way. "All roads lead to Rome"... The smoothly paved roads, and the rocky treacherous roads... It doesn't matter, they all eventually lead us to realizing God as all powerful, omniscient, eternally loving and just beyond any human measure.

So if he knew the consequences of his creation, why would he continue with it? Surely if wanted successful humans he could have made them perfect. Your excuses for these anomalies is very hard to understand not unless I assume you are purposely inventing them for faiths sake. If god knew his creation would result in evil and suffering he is culpable to the crimes.

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@Alan McDougall,

Maybe it is actually OK. Maybe it is not so bad after all. I mean, what are the alternatives? Is there, or can there be, a world where nothing bad ever occurs? And besides, what is 'bad' about it? It might be just the way it is. Suffering may well be the price of being born. There is no use cursing the sky.

There's something going on here. This ain't really about God, you know.

---------- Post added 01-30-2010 at 10:24 PM ----------

Anyway, whatever evil there is out there, I am responsible for it. Nobody else. There is no use hating it or running from it. You can only face it. It is the only way forward - the steady gaze of contemplation, if you're up for it.

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@jeeprs,

jeeprs;123626 wrote:

Maybe it is actually OK. Maybe it is not so bad after all. I mean, what are the alternatives? Is there, or can there be, a world where nothing bad ever occurs? And besides, what is 'bad' about it? It might be just the way it is. Suffering may well be the price of being born. There is no use cursing the sky.

There's something going on here. This ain't really about God, you know.

---------- Post added 01-30-2010 at 10:24 PM ----------

Anyway, whatever evil there is out there, I am responsible for it. Nobody else. There is no use hating it or running from it. You can only face it. It is the only way forward - the steady gaze of contemplation, if you're up for it.

Thats not the question Jeeprs, I agree we are responsible, I don't pass the buck. The question is more searching than the three separated. GOD...EVIL...ALLPOWERFUL..The three are incompatible in logic. Its a question of logic not belief.

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@xris,

xris;123629 wrote:

Thats not the question Jeeprs, I agree we are responsible, I don't pass the buck. The question is more searching than the three separated. GOD...EVIL...ALLPOWERFUL..The three are incompatible in logic. Its a question of logic not belief.

You keep on saying that. But, in logic, we need arguments, not repetitions of what someone believes. Have you any argument for the conclusion that those three are incompatible? What is it? Don't just praise logic, use it. Argument, please.

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@kennethamy,

kennethamy;123639 wrote:

You keep on saying that. But, in logic, we need arguments, not repetitions of what someone believes. Have you any argument for the conclusion that those three are incompatible? What is it? Don't just praise logic, use it. Argument, please.

My arguments have become repetitive but they are still logical, its just that you don't understand why they are illogical. It could be that Im not explaining myself sufficiently or it could be your not capable of understanding. You tell me why its not logical to think this question is illogical.

1 Reply

Why does God permit evil????

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