Why does God permit evil????

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122544 wrote:

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

Depends on which translation. I prefer "Evil be to him who evil thinks", thus Evil does not require God to exist, thus God is not responsible for evil.

Evil is from the mind of man. God does not attempt to control the mind of man. God is not a cosmic puppet master.

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122556 wrote:

Depends on which translation. I prefer "Evil be to him who evil thinks", thus Evil does not require God to exist, thus God is not responsible for evil.

Evil is from the mind of man. God does not attempt to control the mind of man. God is not a cosmic puppet master.

1.The consequences of the Haitian earthquake were evil (pain and suffering)
2.Neither the Haitian earthquake, nor its consequences are from the mind of man.

Therefore, 3, some evil is not from the mind of man.

Anything you object to in the above argument?

2 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122559 wrote:

Anything you object to in the above argument?

Well yes, I don't agree that Evil is synonymous with pain and suffering. I don't even think the words pain and suffering are synonymous, as if to use them together as one single word concept.

I can suffer through a regiment of exercising. I can feel the pain in my sore muscles. I see no evil in this. Some would see good though...

---------- Post added 01-25-2010 at 05:59 PM ----------

BTW... the concepts of pain, suffering, and evil, are all from the mind. Without mind, none of those concepts would exist.

So do these concepts come from the mind of a God, or do they spring from the minds of Humans?

Would there be any pain, suffering, or evil, without a mind present to experience them? How could they be, if they cannot be experienced?

3 Replies

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122566 wrote:

Well yes, I don't agree that Evil is synonymous with pain and suffering. I don't even think the words pain and suffering are synonymous, as if to use them together as one single word concept.

I can suffer through a regiment of exercising. I can feel the pain in my sore muscles. I see no evil in this. Some would see good though...

I don't think that "Evil" is synonymous with pain and suffering either. But I think that pain and suffering are evil. And you are right, "pain" and "suffering" are not synonymous. But I don't think I said they were, did I?

The pain of exercise is evil. The results are good.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122569 wrote:

I don't think that "Evil" is synonymous with pain and suffering either.

OK, you don't think they are synonymous... Right?

kennethamy;122569 wrote:

But I think that pain and suffering are evil.

If you claim that "pain and suffering are evil", it means you claim they are synonymous.

kennethamy;122569 wrote:

And you are right, "pain" and "suffering" are not synonymous. But I don't think I said they were, did I?

You said "pain and suffering are evil"... As in, they are one in the same. One in the same means synonymous.

kennethamy;122569 wrote:

The pain of exercise is evil. The results are good.

By this logic, evil leads to good. Thus the Haiti earthquake is ultimately good? How then may we claim it as evil?

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122566 wrote:

Well yes, I don't agree that Evil is synonymous with pain and suffering. I don't even think the words pain and suffering are synonymous, as if to use them together as one single word concept.

I can suffer through a regiment of exercising. I can feel the pain in my sore muscles. I see no evil in this. Some would see good though...

---------- Post added 01-25-2010 at 05:59 PM ----------

BTW... the concepts of pain, suffering, and evil, are all from the mind. Without mind, none of those concepts would exist.

So do these concepts come from the mind of a God, or do they spring from the minds of Humans?

Would there be any pain, suffering, or evil, without a mind present to experience them? How could they be, if they cannot be experienced?

Evil must originate in the mind of an entity, natural disasters are not evil although the consequences are bad. Evil is a premeditated act of a person (s) toward another person(s) where the abstract thought becomes awful evil reality

0 Replies

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122566 wrote:

Well yes, I don't agree that Evil is synonymous with pain and suffering. I don't even think the words pain and suffering are synonymous, as if to use them together as one single word concept.

I can suffer through a regiment of exercising. I can feel the pain in my sore muscles. I see no evil in this. Some would see good though...

I agree, evil cannot be reduced to "pain and suffering". Evil needs to have some sort of thought involved. Intent becomes a large part of it. Evil does not just happen, there needs to be action for evil to exist. Since the concept of evil is purely human invention then human action needs to be involved for evil to exist. A earthquake in itself, although causing pain and suffering, cannot be called evil since there is no cognizant force driving it. An earthquake is a result of energy being released from the earths crust. Now if someone or some being caused said earthquake to cause harm just for the sake of causing harm, maybe this is classified as evil...

It seems that throughout the postings... nobody has taken the time to define or understand what evil is. Is it an act that causes pain and suffering to living things? With that definition cutting down a tree would be considered evil. Is is only in relation to animals and humans? But we kill and cause suffering to animals? Is evil only in relation to humans? PETA would disagree...

What I'm saying is to continue further, an agreed upon definition of evil needs to exist. Without it, our discussion becomes moot.

Before I add my own thoughts, I'd like to see what others think...

Nick

1 Reply

@maximaldc,

maximaldc;122580 wrote:

It seems that throughout the postings... nobody has taken the time to define or understand what evil is.

I did twice.

1st
Evil is Entropy... noise on the line preventing the pure signal of Truth from being received. It is deception, intentional deception to convince someone that the medium is the message. The medium is never the message. Believing they are the same is Evil.

2nd
Evil is a thoughtful intention to gain personal benefit from doing harm to another.

Earthquakes and birth defects are not Evil. They may bring pain, they may cause suffering, but they are not Evil. Refusing to show compassion for those suffering and in pain, refusing to have compassion for that... That is Evil! Capitalizing upon the pain and suffering of others... That is Evil! Seeking to benefit financially from the pain and suffering of others... That is Evil.

---------- Post added 01-25-2010 at 06:35 PM ----------

Blaming anyone (including a God) for something that is not their responsibility... That is Evil.

---------- Post added 01-25-2010 at 06:41 PM ----------

Alan McDougall;122579 wrote:

Evil must originate in the mind of an entity, natural disasters are not evil although the consequences are bad. Evil is a premeditated act of a person (s) toward another person(s) where the abstract thought becomes awful evil reality

Right, what he^^^ said

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

So would you say then that Evil, as far as we know, is purely a human dilemma? If so... then does God, supposing that such a being exists, really have anything to do with it?

This is based on the supposition that humans have free will since the argument would otherwise change if we didn't.

If an coyote attacks and kills a child that is not evil by your definition. correct?

How about someone born of a mental defect... who couldn't help it, and does the same. Are they evil?

Would a person be considered evil if they then killed the animal which killed their child? How about for the person?

Is there a line in which two actions can happen with one considered evil and the other not?

0 Replies

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122573 wrote:

If you claim that "pain and suffering are evil", it means you claim they are synonymous.

You said "pain and suffering are evil"... As in, they are one in the same. One in the same means synonymous.

By this logic, evil leads to good. Thus the Haiti earthquake is ultimately good? How then may we claim it as evil?

If I say that butter is yellow, I don't mean that "butter" and "yellow" are synonymous, do I? So why when I say that "pain" is evil, should I mean that "pain" and "evil" are synonymous? Obviously, I don't. You are confusing what is called the "is" of identity, with the "is" of predication. (One more example, if I say that Obama is black, I don't mean that Obama and black are synonymous). So, you see, you are wrong.

Going to the dentist to get a root canal procedure is evil. But it results in good. Therefore, some evils may result in good. Just as some goods may result in evil. The pleasure of sex is good, but some consequences of sex are evil. Right?

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Earthquakes are from Chaos, not God and not Man. The Laws of the Universe describe Chaos and how it works to create cause and reaction. Cause and Reaction are fundamental properties of the Universe. They could happen independently from God or Man.

Birth Defects are from copying errors in the Genetic Code. Entropy is the only thing that can prevent a coded signal from being received properly. The signal... The signal is the Truth about a person, how they are intended to be assembled. That Genome is Pure Information, and if not transmitted and received properly during Transcription, then that Truth will never become manifest in the flesh.

Entropy can affect signal transmission in many biological ways. It's all chemicals and molecules and if the conditions of radiation, drugs, heredity may contribute to "noise on the line" preventing the intended Information from being transmitted properly.

Heh... if you want to get right down to it... I believe that all matter is Entropy... Yeah that's right, I believe that all Matter is Entropy and thus all Matter is Evil.

It stands in the way of Pure Thought.

Matter... The Devil himself... The birth of Dualism... The Great Deceiver... The Rose Colored Glasses...

Ahh but we who dwell in the physical realm are at the mercy of Matter. We even need a physical tool called Language to share our thoughts with. We assemble Matter to share our thoughts. We build alphabets by rearranging the Noise around us. We grab Entropy by the throat and bend it stiff to serve our purposes of sharing thoughts. We grab the Devil by the balls... so to speak.

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122594 wrote:

Earthquakes are from Chaos, not God and not Man. The Laws of the Universe describe Chaos and how it works to create cause and reaction. Cause and Reaction are fundamental properties of the Universe. They could happen independently from God or Man.

.

I never said that earthquakes were caused either by God or by man. I just said that they resulted in evil. Pain, death, and suffering. The question is why God does not prevent the evil caused by earthquakes, or prevent the earthquakes. Have you an answer to that?

2 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122559 wrote:

1.The consequences of the Haitian earthquake were evil (pain and suffering)
2.Neither the Haitian earthquake, nor its consequences are from the mind of man.

Therefore, 3, some evil is not from the mind of man.

Anything you object to in the above argument?

I reject the idea that pain and suffering are evil. Pain and suffering are conditions that almost no one wants to go through; they are conditions that we strive to avoid, and they are conditions that we should strive to prevent others from having to endure. When we see others enduring pain and suffering, hopefully we have sympathetic feelings and compassion and a desire to help alleviate the pain and suffering. But pain and suffering are not themselves evil.

What is evil is human intention to commit acts which will lead to the pain and suffering of others. What is evil is the greed that keeps such a divide between wealth and poverty that when an earthquake occurs, most of the structures in a city are destroyed. What is evil is turning one's back on injustice and doing nothing to promote justice in the world.

I assert that "evil" is an adjective that can only properly be applied to human action, intention or neglect. The measure of such evil is the pain, suffering, poverty, loss, indignity, fear, etc. that such human actions or neglect cause.

2 Replies

@1CellOfMany,

1CellOfMany;122599 wrote:

I assert that "evil" is an adjective that can only properly be applied to human action, intention or neglect. The measure of such evil is the pain, suffering, poverty, loss, indignity, fear, etc. that such human actions or neglect cause.

You can, of course, assert whatever you like. But that assertion is simply false. People do assert that disease or starvation is evil, because they result in pain and suffering. Why should they not. Why cannot something be evil because it causes evil, whether or not it is intended?

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122596 wrote:

The question is why God does not prevent the evil caused by earthquakes, or prevent the earthquakes. Have you an answer to that?

Because it is Evil to attribute such atrocity to God in the first place.

The Materialist will believe in earthquakes without the need for a God to exist. God is not a conditional to earthquakes. Therefor, earthquakes have nothing whatsoever to do with God. Therefor the "evil caused by earthquakes" has nothing whatsoever to do with God.

The "evil caused by earthquakes" can exist without the need for a God to blame it on. Why then, if there be a God, why then should we allow ourselves to blame it on him? The Evil is there, with or without God.

Man creates the evil in his mind, and looks for a specter to blame it on. That is Entropy... That is Evil.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122593 wrote:

If I say that butter is yellow, I don't mean that "butter" and "yellow" are synonymous, do I? So why when I say that "pain" is evil, should I mean that "pain" and "evil" are synonymous? Obviously, I don't. You are confusing what is called the "is" of identity, with the "is" of predication. (One more example, if I say that Obama is black, I don't mean that Obama and black are synonymous). So, you see, you are wrong.

Going to the dentist to get a root canal procedure is evil. But it results in good. Therefore, some evils may result in good. Just as some goods may result in evil. The pleasure of sex is good, but some consequences of sex are evil. Right?

I don't think so... the implication of using the world Evil means that no-good can come of it... or at least i suppose that is the idea of evil many of us have.

Based on that supposition, saying that all pain is evil cannot be true since some believe that pain is good. As stated earlier, you can work out, and you might be in pain, but many people say "its a good kind of pain". In regards to sex, many people would say that pain is also good, not only good but arousing and extremely pleasurable.

So you could say... Evil can be pain and suffering, but not all pain and suffering is evil. Using your example of butter for a moment... Butter is yellow, but not everything that is yellow is butter. Evil takes the place of butter. Does that make sense? It is a minor syntax issue, but means a world of difference.

0 Replies

@1CellOfMany,

1CellOfMany;122599 wrote:

I assert that "evil" is an adjective that can only properly be applied to human action, intention or neglect. The measure of such evil is the pain, suffering, poverty, loss, indignity, fear, etc. that such human actions or neglect cause.

That measures up.

0 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122596 wrote:

I never said that earthquakes were caused either by God or by man. I just said that they resulted in evil. Pain, death, and suffering. The question is why God does not prevent the evil caused by earthquakes, or prevent the earthquakes. Have you an answer to that?

Why do you believe that pain and suffering and death are evil?

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Only the flesh that allows it is Evil. Without the flesh, no pain, no suffering, not death nor evil. The concepts wouldn't even exist without the flesh. Matter is Entropy. Entropy is Evil.

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@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122605 wrote:

Because it is Evil to attribute such atrocity to God in the first place.

But who does that? I don't. I just pointed out that earthquakes cause great evils (look at television) and no one, including God, prevents them. It is just a fact.

1 Reply

Why does God permit evil????

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