Why does God permit evil????

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122222 wrote:

Where did I say such an odd thing? Are you sure you are reading my posts?

You constantly tell me evil is of benefit. Changing your mind..are you?

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@xris,

xris;122223 wrote:

...if there is a god, I hope and pray he looks nothing like the one you describe.

Please do not suppose that I am capable of even coming close to "describing" a God. Let not both of us to suppose that isolating one characteristic for discussion, is likewise capable of describing the fullness of such an entity.

Have you considered that God permits Evil because Humans created it? God will also permit our choice to refuse Evil at every turn.

But let us be perfectly clear. This entire thread supposes that Evil does in fact exist with or without a God to permit it... Right?

Well then, if Evil can exist without God, what makes anyone believe that God is responsible for it even if he did exist? Could it be that Evil has nothing whatsoever to do with God in the first place? Could Evil be from mankind? Could it be that God's role in all of this is simply to give us a direction to overcome the Evil that we create and cast upon ourselves?

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@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122234 wrote:

Please do not suppose that I am capable of even coming close to "describing" a God. Let not both of us to suppose that isolating one characteristic for discussion, is likewise capable of describing the fullness of such an entity.

Have you considered that God permits Evil because Humans created it? God will also permit our choice to refuse Evil at every turn.

But let us be perfectly clear. This entire thread supposes that Evil does in fact exist with or without a God to permit it... Right?

Well then, if Evil can exist without God, what makes anyone believe that God is responsible for it even if he did exist? Could it be that Evil has nothing whatsoever to do with God in the first place? Could Evil be from mankind? Could it be that God's role in all of this is simply to give us a direction to overcome the Evil that we create and cast upon ourselves?

So he did not create us ? is that what your saying? Your changing his profile again and the question. Why does a good god allow evil when he is all powerful. Its a contradiction.

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@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122234 wrote:

Have you considered that God permits Evil because Humans created it? God will also permit our choice to refuse Evil at every turn.

Humans created the evil that resulted from the earthquake in Haiti? Which person did that?

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

xris;122335 wrote:

Your changing his profile again and the question. Why does a good god allow evil when he is all powerful. Its a contradiction.

Please do not avoid or redirect the essence of my comment.

This Evil, can it exist in a Godless universe? Is it independent from the God you accuse of it? Would Evil exist even without a God to blame it on?

If your answer is yes, then there is no reason to suppose that God has anything to do with Evil whatsoever. And if Evil is not from God, nor from Man, then you must suppose that Earthquakes somehow have Evil intentions of their own.

Let's say there is a God... why now would you suppose that Evil is his responsibility when it was just demonstrated that Evil could exist without a God? Why is it now suddenly God's fault when before it wasn't? And why is this God held accountable for your definition of good and evil? What gives you the authority to pass judgment on an Omniscient being and decide what it is and is not responsible for?

kennethamy;122370 wrote:

Humans created the evil that resulted from the earthquake in Haiti? Which person did that?

I'm always amazed at those who would claim natural causes for the wonder of the universe. No God in the cosmos, yet somehow a disaster earthquake can possess Evil intentions, as if it is alive and wants to harm humans. Are you supposing that earthquakes have a sentient mind with a desire to do Evil?

The Haiti earthquake is not inherently Evil on its own. It's just a natural disaster. There is no reason to personify it by claiming it is somehow Evil. Only our lack of compassion and unwillingness to help those suffering would be Evil. Evil is manifest from intentions. Earthquakes have no intentions.

What of earthquakes that happen in the middle of a desert, with no people to harm... are those earthquakes Evil too?

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To accuse someone as being responsible for something they are not... That is Evil. There is no evidence to support a claim that a God is in any way responsible for their personal definitions of Evil. Yet there are still those who presume to hold him responsible for such a thing.

Those people become the Accuser.

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122435 wrote:

What of earthquakes that happen in the middle of a desert, with no people to harm... are those earthquakes Evil too?

-----------------------------

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Of course not. What would make you think I believe they are? It is the consequences of the Haitian earthquake that are evil, not the earthquake itself.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122448 wrote:

It is the consequences of the Haitian earthquake that are evil, not the earthquake itself.

I see you and I place different characteristics on what is required to be an Evil.

You believe Evil is a consequence.

I believe Evil is a desire. It could easily desire a consequence, but it must spring from intentions to do harm. Intentions come from mind.

So I must ask myself, was the earthquake a manifestation of thought from a mind intending to do harm to humans? If it was, we should declare war.

I don't believe Evil can exist without a desire to do Evil. And you know the old phrase, "not making a choice is making a choice"... An opportunity to help my fellow man has presented itself. Choosing not to make a choice is the same as choosing not to help. Therefor I would desire not to help. That is an Evil desire.

Evil cannot exist without Desire, whatever the consequences might be.

If there were no minds, there would be no Evil. Yet the cause/effect of chaos would still have consequences. Consequences don't need a mind to manifest. Consequences are the end result of cause and reaction, rather a fundamental property of the universe.

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122450 wrote:

I see you and I place different characteristics on what is required to be an Evil.

You believe Evil is a consequence.

I believe Evil is a desire. It could easily desire a consequence, but it must spring from intentions to do harm. Intentions come from mind.

.

I believe that suffering and pain are evils, and since the Haitian quake caused suffering and pain, the earthquake was an evil. No one need desire suffering and pain for suffering and pain to be evils. If a little innocent child suffers pain, then that is an evil even if no one intends that evil.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122465 wrote:

I believe...

All fine, and based on this comment, you admit that Evil requires a mind? All of your examples required a mind for Evil to exist. Do you believe that Evil requires a mind to exist?

And if so...

Is Evil from the mind of God or the mind of Man?

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@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122475 wrote:

All fine, and based on this comment, you admit that Evil requires a mind? All of your examples required a mind for Evil to exist. Do you believe that Evil requires a mind to exist?

And if so...

Is Evil from the mind of God or the mind of Man?

There are animals that suffer great pain. That does not require a mind. Evil does not derive from a mind. The evils of the Hatian earthquakes were caused by what insurance companies call, "acts of God".

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

Evil is in the mind of men but as god created man he invented evil. If we see evil without god then god has no reason to exist. You cant divorce god from evil . You are straying from the question. God is permitting evil, why?

3 Replies

@xris,

xris;122489 wrote:

God is permitting evil, why?

The real question comes down to this: what is God's goal for the world/existence?

I can assume that since anything exists at all(and I consider it an obvious conclusion that something rather than nothing exists), and if God exists, then God must have deemed it necessary for anything(and everything) to exist, so the issue is what is His endgame?

Is His goal the perpetual physical and mental happiness of humankind? Should that be His goal? Or does He have something bigger in mind? If so, then it would seem that there is something more important than perpetual material happiness and in fact it would follow that that goal would take precedence over an individual's happiness.

So the question to you becomes, if God exists, what is(/should) His goal for us (/be) ?

I submit that His goal should be bringing people to a knowledge of Himself

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122488 wrote:

There are animals that suffer great pain. That does not require a mind.

Huh? Flesh (biological life) without a mind can suffer? Do plants suffer? How can you claim something as suffering if it does not express suffering? How can a thing express suffering without a mind to express it?

kennethamy;122488 wrote:

The evils of the Hatian earthquakes were caused by what insurance companies call, "acts of God".

Heh... I don't think the insurance companies have any monopoly on what true "acts of God" are any more than Parker Brothers has a monopoly on the Underworld with their toy Ouiga Boards. Shall we put the truth of God in the hands of Insurance Companies? Hahahahahahaha, oh LOL:lol:

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@Amperage,

Amperage;122501 wrote:

The real question comes down to this: what is God's goal for the world/existence?

I can assume that since anything exists at all(and I consider it an obvious conclusion that something rather than nothing exists), and if God exists, then God must have deemed it necessary for anything(and everything) to exist, so the issue is what is His endgame?

Is His goal the perpetual physical and mental happiness of humankind? Should that be His goal? Or does He have something bigger in mind? If so, then it would seem that there is something more important than perpetual material happiness and in fact it would follow that that goal would take precedence over an individual's happiness.

So the question to you becomes, if God exists, what is(/should) His goal for us (/be) ?

I submit that His goal should be bringing people to a knowledge of Himself

This is the refuge of those who cant contemplate our purpose, or gods purpose for us. We have existed for millions of years, his appearance to confirm his being is very vague if not none existent in those millions of years, why? . His purpose is not exactly clear. You want me to believe that this god is good, is all powerful and for some unknown reasons allows evil, why? Do you think , you have journey of discovery? do you think the child who died aged two last week had a journey of discovery? I wonder if my reasoning does not echo around your head and you refuse to listen to your own reasoning.

If god is all powerful he could create perfection and this existance would be o so unnecessary. Dont you ask why it has been going on for so bleeding long ? when is it over, this damned painful charade?

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;122509 wrote:

This is the refuge of those who cant contemplate our purpose, or gods purpose for us. We have existed for millions of years, his appearance to confirm his being is very vague if not none existent in those millions of years, why? . His purpose is not exactly clear. You want me to believe that this god is good, is all powerful and for some unknown reasons allows evil, why? Do you think , you have journey of discovery? do you think the child who died aged two last week had a journey of discovery? I wonder if my reasoning does not echo around your head and you refuse to listen to your own reasoning.

If god is all powerful he could create perfection and this existance would be o so unnecessary. Dont you ask why it has been going on for so bleeding long ? when is it over, this damned painful charade?

firstly, I don't think you answered any of my questions, but that's fine as it's just food for thought. Secondly, you assert that my knowledge of or lack of knowledge of God's purpose(though I gave my opinion in the previous post) in some way refutes His existence and that any suggestion of faith in that which cannot be seen or known becomes a cop out last ditch response. Question, do you think faith has any place in reality, with or without God's existence? Thirdly, you make an assumption about what is and what is not necessary based on an incomplete scope of the big picture.

I contend that He has made His existence known but I do think that one must actively seek it and put aside preconceived notions. Yes, I have wondered many of the things you ask and you know what, I choose to believe that if God brings a child into the world for 2 minutes ,and then that child dies, that God had a plan for that child and that God's glory will ultimately be served through that act. Is life so bad that you would want this "painful charade" to end? I'm not sure when it will all end but I think the better question is not 'when is this over' but 'how can I or who can I help today'. Love is the ultimate act of humanity(and God's personification through us) and there is still many more who need love. At the risk of being considered rhetoric or a cop out answer by me from you I will say that trying to understand God is a bit like Zeno's Paradox in the sense that if you say to yourself, 'well I'll believe in God when I understand everything about Him', then you'll never believe in Him. Not because He isn't there but because in the same sense to learn x amount about God you need to learn x/2 amount and so on and so on. This is where faith comes in. I hope this helps at all.

1 Reply

@Amperage,

There is no cause or argument against it. I need something a bit more than faith.

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@xris,

xris;122195 wrote:

We are not robots we live and learn but if a perfect, all powerful, god created us it would not require these painful lessons, we could all be sufficient. You fail to see or wish to ignore this invention. This obstinate refusal to see the illogical reasoning of belief in a good all powerful god who permits evil or designs tragic events to create a certain perfection..Why create us, if it requires such pain and sorrow , what purpose do we serve. ITS NOT LOGICAL.

XRIS IN my opinion God while being all powerful does not exist with human attributes. I think he might just observe. God if he exists, therefore must have two prime apposing attributes one good and the other the creator of destruction and evil If there is no God then the words good and evil have no real meaning, Hitler and his cronies thought it was GOOD to murder millions of innocent people.

I want there to be an afterlife where monsters like him are punished in hell

I am death the destroyer of worlds (God)

Below is a post of mine on another forum

The mystery of sin and God the Benevolent

by Alan McDougall

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@xris,

My guess is that is our destany to learn to keep good from evil, to learn as humans.

Before mono-theism people believed in gods with dual nature like Astarte, godess of love and war.

I grew up Calvinist/protestant and didn't like the Old Testament God, but was impressed by stories about Jezus. So down to Earth.:devilish:

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@xris,

xris;122489 wrote:

Evil is in the mind of men

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

2 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122544 wrote:

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

Just in man??

Let us go back to the origin of evil, where did it come from.

0 Replies

Why does God permit evil????

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