2
   

Consciousness is a Biological Problem

 
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 12:01 am
@odenskrigare,
Further matters will come up later (if I can get to them) but in recapping what has been covered so far on brain build, and the motor system, we can see that there are a number of structures besides just the cortical areas. One important hub is the basal ganglia. It works much more so on a inhibition process, than on an excitation process. We know that neurotransmitters and neuromodulators are important, and that deficits in them, as well as deficits in volume or structural integrity, equate to deficits in the production of movement (and this is also true of the cerebellum, as well). Also, the motor system's priming is often at a level of conscious that is not firstly registered in the state of consciousness, and individual structures have their own states and levels of processing (conscious). And finally, we have come to see that it is most clearly brain that is working which makes movement happen, and that there is no evidence for, yet more than enough evidence against, any idea of the brain's having to recieve 'signals' to produce bodily actions by the CNS.


Here, I will go into the area of what has been learned thus far, from research related to, and studies and tests done with, people (and monkeys) after callosotomy.

When we talk about the brain, we are not talking about just the neo-cortex; we are not looking at just one single pathway and then reaching a conclusion on aggregate operation of the brain. For this reason, I had stressed that there is a necessary difference between using the term THE brain, as opposed to simply and only, the term brain. Although it is necessary to look at each local structure or module in the first place--each process, each pathway, map, and system and so on--in developing the overall view, we have to adjust our understanding as we add overlaps, synaptic assemblies, and body/environment/genetical inputs; bottom-up averaged by top-down.

The procedure of callosotomy is to keep epileptic seizures on one side from crossing over to the other side. While it is not as dangerous an operation as it had been back when it was first done in the 1940s by Dr.William Van Wagenen--there is a very thin layer of cells between the corpus callosum (CC) and the lateral ventricals, and if you cut into that, you'll have a bit of a problem--it is yet a 'last resort' choice. The CC, which can be listed in five sections (four principle parts in bold) rostrum, genu, body, plenium, and isthmus (not to be confused with brain stem part with the same name, and thus, I guess, not used often), is not exactly the same in each and every normal brain, but is very, very close.

The CC is the major (but not only) commissure , and is made up of some 200 million fibers--axons--that cross through from cortical layers II and III. These are both ipsilateral and contralateral projections to correspondings areas of each cortical hemisphere. Incoming axons with connecting neurons are generally in vertical-like structuring called cortical columns which constitute functional units. Layer VI and V of the cortex primarily send axons down to the thalamus, and the striatum, brain stem, and spinal chord respectively.

Here we have to keep one thing one thing in mind, as touched on by Aedes before, namely, there is only one brain stem, and the subcortical structures are sitting on top of that, and wired from there, along with the ipsilateral projecting of the cerebellum to the upper structures and the neo-cortex even, to some degree. So even if all the commissure fibers of the corpus callosum were cut (sometimes some are left in split-brain surgery), we are not fully and absolutely cutting the whole brain into two sections. This fact must be kept in mind.

Also, it must be kept in mind that the cognized and acknowledged state of consciousness is always projected as a singularity, at any given moment, regardless. For this reason, split-brain patients did not notice any major lasting differences (in most cases) after surgery, and original examinations of the first patients did not show any feared 'two people in one person' results. It seems to not have given much concern, in the early days, that the studies done with monkeys did present evidence of difference in hemispheric conscious (not consciousness). At present, those who have done perhaps the larger bulk of work in this area, with Sperry, Gazzaniga, LeDoux, Funnell, Kingstone, and a few others leading the way, have provided a rather clear picture of how each hemisphere has its own level of conscious (not used here in the sense of that full state of consciousness). I will next go into that.
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 12:29 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;88584 wrote:
Actually since posting that idea, way back when, my viewpoint has evolved a bit. It was kind of an AHA! moment. It was when I suddenly 'got' the basic idea of idealism, the role of the observer in the construction of knowledge, and the fact that reality is 'not what you see through the window' but 'you looking out the window', if you can appreciate the difference.

I am starting to see how this has been developed from Plato->Kant->Husserl->phenomenonology. And I don't think there is a 'realm' as such, but I am not going to go down that road for the time being, it isn't really necessary.




Nothing to add to that observation except to ask the question, do we see something of non-dualism in this analysis?


I think incidentally we are 'crossing threads' here....I will confine my comments to theother thread, the arguments are subtle enough as it is without having to remember which thread we are on....

---------- Post added 09-07-2009 at 02:14 PM ----------

Also, I rather regret having introduced the term 'materialist' to this debate, if indeed it was me that introduced it. Really this originated in a lot of the debates I was having at University in a different context. The meaning of the word has changed somewhat and besides it is really rather a divisive term. So I shall refrain from using it. I think 'physicalist' is a better way of describing the philosophical position and less divisive.


there is no doubt that the threads overlap, and often a post will be relevant to both.

i definitely have a problem with terms like dualist, materialist, physicalist, idealist. i am a dualist in a sense that i see a difference between two aspects, esoterically known as the inner life and the outer life but in religious terms spirit and flesh, for philosophers what it would be called i dont know. i am not a dualist in a sense that there is no separation between the two realms in my opinion. to me a materialist or physicalist sees only one aspect of reality, that which can be measured.

what is an idealist in this sense? i am an idealist because i believe in impossible things like perfection, truth, love...but i dont see it possible to attain them in this miserable condition we are in right now. at the same time, i believe in them and still feel it is reaching for those ideals that causes us to be able to reach our highest limits.

---------- Post added 09-07-2009 at 12:15 PM ----------

hi KJ-
one short question on your last post.
"And finally, we have come to see that it is most clearly brain that is working which makes movement happen, and that there is no evidence for, yet more than enough evidence against, any idea of the brain's having to recieve 'signals' to produce bodily actions by the CNS."
but the brain cannot arbitrarily cause the body to make movements-if the CNS is not providing any signal, why does it happen at all? you mean to say when my arm reaches out for a cup of coffee it is because i had the will and intention to move it? but those are not measurable ... those things, will and intention dont belong to the physical world. do they?
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 01:20 am
@salima,
salima;88627 wrote:
hi KJ-
one short question on your last post.

"And finally, we have come to see that it is most clearly brain that is working which makes movement happen, and that there is no evidence for, yet more than enough evidence against, any idea of the brain's having to recieve 'signals' to produce bodily actions by the CNS."


but the brain cannot arbitrarily cause the body to make movements-if the CNS is not providing any signal, why does it happen at all? you mean to say when my arm reaches out for a cup of coffee it is because i had the will and intention to move it? but those are not measurable ... those things, will and intention dont belong to the physical world. do they?


Thanks for your concern, there, salima. Just in case, let me first paraphrase that quoted sentence in amplified form.

[indent]
Amplified paraphrase wrote:
And the last and final point of that serious of points just mentioned before, is, that we have come to understand, based on the evidence, that it is brain tissue of the relative structures, as oppose to the WHOLE brain, that is moving the muscles. We have come to understand that there is no evidence for the idea that brain tissue of the relative structures recieves 'signals' beyond what is normal within the CNS, in order to move the muscles. There is enough evidence to lead us to understand that brain activity, largely in the form of synaptic lay and activity, the major player of the CNS, signals the muscles to contract and expand, thus moving the body.
[/indent]

salima wrote:
but the brain cannot arbitrarily cause the body to make movements-if the CNS is not providing any signal . . .


Well, actually if you were to go back over the run of posts on the motor system, you will find that brain can arbitrarily cause the body to move, or not move. Those TS patients who are of a certain affliction level, don't want to, and have to work very hard to suppress, brain activating movements. Brain (as opposed to the brain) is doing that moving 'arbitrarily.' The same for HD.

Also, please do keep in mind that the brain is the control center of the CNS, and in a way, could be said to be the CNS. It is the brain that runs things, not other parts of the CNS, or the PNS.


salima;88627 wrote:
you mean to say when my arm reaches out for a cup of coffee it is because i had the will and intention to move it? but those are not measurable ... those things, will and intention dont belong to the physical world. do they?


As best as can be determined, those things do belong to the physical world. Of, and due to, all the thinkable reasons why your brain would want to reach out for that cup of coffee, fair evidence can be produced showing the physcial elements leading to that final action. Some of these things will come up here, in this thread, in time. . . (at least I'll do my best to cover everything, and as much detail as I feel needed to get the depth across.)
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 01:27 am
@KaseiJin,
Pathfinder;88002 wrote:

One other thought is how do the biology supporters rationalize the biological function of self-sacrifice? Surely the brains biological function is to do no harm, and yet there are instances where a person will sacrifice their life for a loved one. That suggests a consciousness separate from mere brain function.



Thats like saying, "because we can hold our breath therefore my mind is seperate." Me thinks there's a weak inference somewhere in there...
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 03:50 am
@Kielicious,
Try proving the soul does not exist ? This examination of the brain does not conclude that it does not exist. This body could be just a means of existing in a material world.
Try inventing a body capable of communicating with an ethereal entity but still living in a physical existance. Create the machine and see if looks anything like a human?
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 03:56 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;88632 wrote:
Thats like saying, "because we can hold our breath therefore my mind is seperate." Me thinks there's a weak inference somewhere in there...


But that is exactly it Kiel. If we can act against what the brain would naturally have us do, than what exactly is it thats is doing the anti brainwork?
salima
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 05:56 am
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;88631 wrote:
Thanks for your concern, there, salima. Just in case, let me first paraphrase that quoted sentence in amplified form.


Well, actually if you were to go back over the run of posts on the motor system, you will find that brain can arbitrarily cause the body to move, or not move. Those TS patients who are of a certain affliction level, don't want to, and have to work very hard to suppress, brain activating movements. Brain (as opposed to the brain) is doing that moving 'arbitrarily.' The same for HD.

Also, please do keep in mind that the brain is the control center of the CNS, and in a way, could be said to be the CNS. It is the brain that runs things, not other parts of the CNS, or the PNS.




As best as can be determined, those things do belong to the physical world. Of, and due to, all the thinkable reasons why your brain would want to reach out for that cup of coffee, fair evidence can be produced showing the physcial elements leading to that final action. Some of these things will come up here, in this thread, in time. . . (at least I'll do my best to cover everything, and as much detail as I feel needed to get the depth across.)


but where is the connection between the thought in my mind of getting a cuppa...ah, you mean the brain is firing my thinking 'get a cuppa' and then from there to the physical movement. do you believe the brain wanted a cup of coffee and fired off those neurons to get me into action? or was it obeying my command? i mean the brain itself wouldnt have generated the thought-it was only translating it into electrical impulses (if that is ok as a term for all the neuronal action) is that how it works? but the thought had to have started out as a non-physical stimulus.

sorry, i did read about TS and all in your posts, it was very good and i am recording them and watching for the rest as you go along. i should have said 'the healthy brain' would not cause me to make a move arbitrarily.
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 01:50 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;88644 wrote:
But that is exactly it Kiel. If we can act against what the brain would naturally have us do, than what exactly is it thats is doing the anti brainwork?


Because we arent going against our brain. Our brain is allowing us to override some of the 'sub-conscious' activity. (I prefer the word subconscious over unconscious because there can be some uninvolved implications with the latter.)
0 Replies
 
alcaz0r
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 02:21 pm
@Kielicious,
Does the brain contradict itself?
Very well then it contradicts itself,
(It is large, it contain multitudes.)
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 03:30 pm
@Kielicious,
Microsoft Word must have a soul too, based on how much it works against itself
0 Replies
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 06:47 pm
@salima,
Last quicky here before running off to the office..as we seem to have to do, for some reason, in life . . .


salima;88669 wrote:
do you believe the brain wanted a cup of coffee and fired off those neurons to get me into action? or was it obeying my command? i mean the brain itself wouldnt have generated the thought-it was only translating it into electrical impulses (if that is ok as a term for all the neuronal action) is that how it works? but the thought had to have started out as a non-physical stimulus.


I will explain in more detail, as I go (although it does get involved, and I'll have to simplify it somewhat), however for now, this much.

Actually, all brain works on the same language--bio-chemical. The bio-chemical communication, however, is mostly instigated by neural spiking pattern and frequency. Only sensory input can be seen to immediately come from outside the CNS (there is much in-brain and between structure communication (in that same language, so no translating is being done there, really, just 'talking'), and that is where translation is being done. . . that, is the 'cross-over point.'

Think of this, if you were to suddenly start feeling sleepy, it would not be because the level of consciousness which is that of awake and alert cognitive acknowledgement had commanded the brain to signal the body activity which goes into that mode, but rather brain structures which operate at the level of conscious below that consciousness threshold. In other words, to use your style of wording, it would not be you doing that, but yet you (the brain that is you) is doing that. Further, if you were to rather suddenly notice that you had the urge to go to the restroom, it would not be because your brain commanded that urge, but because the PSN signaled the area of the brain that it works with (outside of counsciousness) and that eventually (it may have been firing little by little, in increment steps) got the attention of the higher centers, and made it pass the threshold of consciousness, and so you noticed the urge. This was all internal, no external stimuli at all. This happens a whole lot, actually.
salima
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 07:04 pm
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;88894 wrote:
Last quicky here before running off to the office..as we seem to have to do, for some reason, in life . . .




I will explain in more detail, as I go (although it does get involved, and I'll have to simplify it somewhat), however for now, this much.

Actually, all brain works on the same language--bio-chemical. The bio-chemical communication, however, is mostly instigated by neural spiking pattern and frequency. Only sensory input can be seen to immediately come from outside the CNS (there is much in-brain and between structure communication (in that same language, so no translating is being done there, really, just 'talking'), and that is where translation is being done. . . that, is the 'cross-over point.'

Think of this, if you were to suddenly start feeling sleepy, it would not be because the level of consciousness which is that of awake and alert cognitive acknowledgement had commanded the brain to signal the body activity which goes into that mode, but rather brain structures which operate at the level of conscious below that consciousness threshold. In other words, to use your style of wording, it would not be you doing that, but yet you (the brain that is you) is doing that. Further, if you were to rather suddenly notice that you had the urge to go to the restroom, it would not be because your brain commanded that urge, but because the PSN signaled the area of the brain that it works with (outside of counsciousness) and that eventually (it may have been firing little by little, in increment steps) got the attention of the higher centers, and made it pass the threshold of consciousness, and so you noticed the urge. This was all internal, no external stimuli at all. This happens a whole lot, actually.


i can follow that ok, but my question was what about an urge that is unrelated to a biological need? there are requirements for sleep, food, toilet, and chemical levels in the blood can signal a craving for sweet-but suppose i eliminate the possibility of any biological need for that which i have a desire to experience. suppose there is not outside stimuli that has caused me to associate with a prior memory-for instance, i was not watching television and saw people drinking beer which in turn made me want a cup of coffee (since i dont drink beer). do you see what i am getting at?

suppose i have a desire to go play nusrat fateh ali khan, and it apparently came out of the blue-just an impulse. it has to come from somewhere. a thought cant happen without there being something to stimulate it-a desire cant happen without there being some stimulus. can it?
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 08:20 pm
@salima,
salima;88900 wrote:
suppose i have a desire to go play nusrat fateh ali khan, and it apparently came out of the blue-just an impulse. it has to come from somewhere.
That may be the first thing you consciously realize, but it may have appeared from a primary stimulus of boredom, or maybe a tune stuck in your head, or whatever, and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan came into your mind because of memories and associations.
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 09:03 pm
@Kielicious,
The more you think about it, the more life seems like one long reflex arc from cradle to grave
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 09:24 pm
@Kielicious,
Maybe time to stop thinking about it, then.

I am an amateur jazz pianist. When I play a jazz standard on the piano, I am able to do so spontaneously, and without calculation. If I had to consciously consider all of the various aspects of the muscles and movements involved, and also all the aspects of musical theory that are implicit in the performance, I would never be able to play anything. But I know hundreds of songs, and can play them mainly from memory, and improvise on them.

As it is, a good deal of this happens automatically now, albeit only through many years of 'internalising' the required knowledge through practise and analysis, and also something inborn, which is musicality, which I suppose must be genetic. But at the end of all of it, something emerges which is spontaneous and joyous, and that is the only point of it.

This is an analogy for the analysis of consciousness in terms of the physiology of the brain and so on. As an amateur philosopher, I really don't see any point in understanding consciousness through brain science. I suppose if you have a scientific bent, that is the way you will see things. I can't see any relationship to philosophy, as such, which for me consists of reflection on the nature of experience, and also the search for wisdom. If I had wanted to learn about neuro-sciences, I would have joined a neuro-sciences forum, but it is a subject in which I have no interest and no knowledge. So I will retire out of these consciousness threads now and work on some other topics.
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 09:34 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;88924 wrote:
This is an analogy for the analysis of consciousness in terms of the physiology of the brain and so on. As an amateur philosopher, I really don't see any point in understanding consciousness through brain science. I suppose if you have a scientific bent, that is the way you will see things. I can't see any relationship to philosophy, as such, which for me consists of reflection on the nature of experience, and also the search for wisdom. If I had wanted to learn about neuro-sciences, I would have joined a neuro-sciences forum, but it is a subject in which I have no interest and no knowledge. So I will retire out of these consciousness threads now and work on some other topics.


Neurophilosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
0 Replies
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 09:57 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;88924 wrote:
Maybe time to stop thinking about it, then.


This is the whole point. Anyone involved with sports, arts, music knows that there is a qualitative difference when it comes from the heart (e.g. singing or playing with soul) and mechanically coming from the brain. There is a difference, when one stops thinking about it. Why is there this difference if it is all the same thing? Because it is emanating from somewhere else. This is called playing with feeling, or playing from the heart, or playing with soul. Anyone involved with sports or the arts knows about this difference even if they have never experienced it. They have certainly heard or seen it - i.e. witnessed it.

jeeprs;88924 wrote:
I am an amateur jazz pianist.


Well, then you should KNOW. The discussion about neurons and such should be beside the point.

Rich
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 10:58 pm
@richrf,
jeeprs;88924 wrote:
Maybe time to stop thinking about it, then.

I am an amateur jazz pianist. When I play a jazz standard on the piano, I am able to do so spontaneously, and without calculation. If I had to consciously consider all of the various aspects of the muscles and movements involved, and also all the aspects of musical theory that are implicit in the performance, I would never be able to play anything. But I know hundreds of songs, and can play them mainly from memory, and improvise on them.

As it is, a good deal of this happens automatically now, albeit only through many years of 'internalising' the required knowledge through practise and analysis, and also something inborn, which is musicality, which I suppose must be genetic. But at the end of all of it, something emerges which is spontaneous and joyous, and that is the only point of it.

This is an analogy for the analysis of consciousness in terms of the physiology of the brain and so on. As an amateur philosopher, I really don't see any point in understanding consciousness through brain science. I suppose if you have a scientific bent, that is the way you will see things. I can't see any relationship to philosophy, as such, which for me consists of reflection on the nature of experience, and also the search for wisdom. If I had wanted to learn about neuro-sciences, I would have joined a neuro-sciences forum, but it is a subject in which I have no interest and no knowledge. So I will retire out of these consciousness threads now and work on some other topics.



To be completely honest, you didnt really say anything of substance. Why is there always some weird obscure analogy to the 'spiritual philosophy'? Why cant I ever see sound reasoning and physical evidence? Am I really asking for too much? That is the entire reason why I dont endorse anything from the 'right-wing' philosophy anymore because my questions were never answered and it became embarrassing. I am open to being persuaded but do you really expect to change people's viewpoints by not presenting anything at all?

richrf;88929 wrote:
This is the whole point. Anyone involved with sports, arts, music knows that there is a qualitative difference when it comes from the heart (e.g. singing or playing with soul) and mechanically coming from the brain. There is a difference, when one stops thinking about it. Why is there this difference if it is all the same thing? Because it is emanating from somewhere else. This is called playing with feeling, or playing from the heart, or playing with soul. Anyone involved with sports or the arts knows about this difference even if they have never experienced it. They have certainly heard or seen it - i.e. witnessed it.



Case. in. point.
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 11:12 pm
@Kielicious,
ironically enough

The neural basis of visual skill learning: an fMRI study of mirror reading -- Poldrack et al. 8 (1): 1 -- Cerebral Cortex
fMRI Investigation of Cortical and Subcortical Networks in the Learning of Abstract and Effector-Specific Representations of Motor Sequences - Cogprints
CiNii- A new approach to a comparison of Ballet Skills : fMRI of Classical Ballet's Foot Movements
Action Observation and Acquired Motor Skills: An fMRI Study with Expert Dancers -- Calvo-Merino et al. 15 (8): 1243 -- Cerebral Cortex

... etc

protip: even if you're not thinking about it consciously, the brain lights up like a X-mas tree
0 Replies
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 09:14 am
@salima,
salima;88900 wrote:
suppose there is not outside stimuli that has caused me to associate with a prior memory-for instance, i was not watching television and saw people drinking beer which in turn made me want a cup of coffee (since i dont drink beer). do you see what i am getting at?

suppose i have a desire to go play nusrat fateh ali khan, and it apparently came out of the blue-just an impulse. it has to come from somewhere. a thought cant happen without there being something to stimulate it-a desire cant happen without there being some stimulus. can it?


For the first matter, please do not forget, that if you see something, you are recieving outside stimuli. If you saw some people drinking whatever, that would be external stimuli which gives your brain information to work on. Then, on top of what Aedes has pointed out (which I have mentioned on a number of occasions, actually) much of what happens in the brain never is cognitively acknowledged by the state of consciousness. . . so you cannot report on what had given way so as to bring that 'urge' to do something, but it happened. The evidence is quite strong and clear . . . nothing just comes out of nowhere, really.

Just to balance things out a bit, and wander off topic to that degree here, for now, it just happens to be that I too, am a 'once' simi-pro musician. I play blues guitar, sing, and write (and still play and sing, but seldom public now, and I don't write these days). In that respect, I can very much feel the territory of what jeeprs is saying about the beauty of the emotion, the art, and the 'tool' that music is for emotional release and social bonding.

I know of people, though, who cannot experience that emotional high at all. Their emotions are dulled due to brain damage, they can not feel them nor recognize them in others, except for having a categorical memory of the terms. I know of, and have worked with, people who are gifted musicians, who have perfect pitch, syncopation, and transposition abilities, and I now have a fairly good understanding of how such can be the case. I also know that it is due to brain function that all this can happen, or is prevented from happening.

Understanding brain is the surest path to understanding brained life forms, understanding the range of cognition between the jelly fish and the H. sapien, and understanding the difference in sexes and fellow challenged humans. It is the most universal way to understand the sameness of our species, all the while being able to help us value and understand the differences. What greater privilege can there be but to have had the chance to be a once-in-a-universe event, and to have danced to that cosmic song of life with other once-in-a-universe beings.

Also, any philosophical pilgrimage out beyond the known, more thicker layers of ice that the lake of understanding due to empirical and exercisable knowledge has formed, will put those who venture there in great danger of having that thin ice give way under the feet, at any time. To ignore what is known about brain, and yet to go on and make philosophical assumptions on the brain, is a mistake.

No; studying, learning and knowing about brain in detail is not something to be put up on a shelf and forgotten about, for there is yet a great lack of understanding in the public at large--for which reason there is the International Brain Awareness Week in March of every year. I will continue presenting what is known, and will proceed with my presentation and arguments against some misconceptions and misinformation regarding our organ upstairs.
 

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