Consciousness is a Biological Problem

@Kielicious,

but maaaaaan like ...... energy is consciousness maaaaaaan

0 Replies

@Kielicious,

RichF,

as you can easily observe, the grazing deer do not like to have their feeding time interrupted by the uneasy sidestepping of us elder bucks.

I too have studied some of various aspects of reincarnation and can easily see a credible reason to consider it a possibility, far more so than anything else that has been proposed regarding life and death.

the only problem I have with it is the transference of identity. That is something that I still struggle with and work on with great interest.

As for these who enjoy their lives of molecular degeneration and electrical impulsiveness, I just hope they at least learn enough to avoid getting their droppings mixed up with their food.

---------- Post added 08-19-2009 at 05:48 PM ----------

odenskrigare;84388 wrote:

but maaaaaan like ...... energy is consciousness maaaaaaan

okay man, so like, hey, like, is the electricity in my walls going to say hello when I pull off the drywall? man?

2 Replies

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;84391 wrote:

As for these who enjoy their lives of molecular degeneration and electrical impulsiveness, I just hope they at least learn enough to avoid getting their droppings mixed up with their food.

I am getting the most peculiar feeling that you don't know what you're talking about

Pathfinder;84391 wrote:

okay man, so like, hey, like, is the electricity in my walls going to say hello when I pull off the drywall? man?

no but the electricity in a person's head might

oh and btw I was making a parody of rich saying that "energy is made of consciousness"

just fyi

0 Replies

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;84391 wrote:

I too have studied some of various aspects of reincarnation and can easily see a credible reason to consider it a possibility, far more so than anything else that has been proposed regarding life and death.

Just out of curiosity, what do you see as the credible aspect?

Pathfinder;84391 wrote:

the only problem I have with it is the transference of identity. That is something that I still struggle with and work on with great interest.

This is no problem if you realize that your odds of being reincarnated as a human are virtually nil. Assuming, of course, that reincarnation isn't just another form of life-after-death-wishful-thinking.

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@Kielicious,

TickTockMan he's probably older than you and people who have made more trips around the sun are always right about everything they talk about whether it's neuroscience or epistemology or really anything

you learn all that through experience man

1 Reply

@odenskrigare,

odenskrigare;84385 wrote:

this is the timescale that quantum effects take place on

do you know how much slower neurons are than that

... the contingencies of how evolution might put the quantum to use in the macro world are hardly the point ... the point is that evolution found a way to let the quantum seep into the macro world and fuse it with determinism to create something that could not exist in either realm alone ... this opens a Pandora's box of questions regarding the assumed either/or determinism/quantum dichotomy ... you can no longer analyze something strictly under one or the other and make anything but abstract suppositions such as "if the world were completely deterministic, then ..."

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@Kielicious,

tick tock,

it takes a great deal more insight and indepth consideration than can be ventured into here briefly to tackle that subject.

we could start another thread elsewjere if youre interested in debating that though. It is fascinating even for those take the challenge to debunk it.

---------- Post added 08-19-2009 at 07:32 PM ----------

odenskrigare;84408 wrote:

TickTockMan he's probably older than you and people who have made more trips around the sun are always right about everything they talk about whether it's neuroscience or epistemology or really anything

you learn all that through experience man

ahaha , so many times i lost count man.

But i learned the dope on scientific hypothesis after the second revolution. That was easy to figure out, you must only be on your first trip my firend, lol

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

paulhanke;84409 wrote:

... the contingencies of how evolution might put the quantum to use in the macro world are hardly the point ... the point is that evolution found a way to let the quantum seep into the macro world and fuse it with determinism to create something that could not exist in either realm alone ... this opens a Pandora's box of questions

it does but we're not talking about photosynthesis

Pathfinder;84410 wrote:

we could start another thread elsewjere if youre interested in debating that though. It is fascinating even for those take the challenge to debunk it

you don't really have to debunk reincarnation because there's no evidence for it

Pathfinder;84410 wrote:

ahaha , so many times i lost count man.

But i learned the dope on scientific hypothesis after the second revolution. That was easy to figure out, you must only be on your first trip my firend, lol

huh

what are you talking about

and is this how people always make themselves forget they are turning into carcasses

if that's the case I don't want to grow old

1 Reply

@ACB,

ACB;84387 wrote:

Does it? I thought quantum effects were purely random. And they date right back to the beginning of the universe, long before there was any life, or "consciousness" in the ordinary sense.

It could be totally random. But then again you have to deal with what seems to be some order in the universe. It is my way of thinking that Consciousness game first and creates order. That is all. Very simple. However, it gives consciousness, something that cannot be measured, primacy. Something, that I not only find very interesting but quite acceptable. However, someone who wants give material good primacy might find this very difficult to accept.

My way of looking at things is not to deny what I observe. If I thought everything was random, I would do nothing. If I thought everything was determined, I would do nothing. But I do something. Now, the question is why and how do I do it?

Rich

---------- Post added 08-19-2009 at 07:57 PM ----------

Pathfinder;84391 wrote:

RichF,

as you can easily observe, the grazing deer do not like to have their feeding time interrupted by the uneasy sidestepping of us elder bucks.

Yes. That is why I am always excited to find other elders to talk with. A different stage in life.

Pathfinder;84391 wrote:

I too have studied some of various aspects of reincarnation and can easily see a credible reason to consider it a possibility, far more so than anything else that has been proposed regarding life and death.

Yes, this is what I feel. I am not sure whether I would call what I envision reincarnation. It is a sense that memory transcends physical life, in the way that memory in a physical life transcends one cycle of awake-sleep.

I ask myself, then why is certain memory lost, just like memory of dreams are lost. The answer I have come up with at this point is that loss of certain memories allows the soul to start afresh. Sort of like starting a new game of chess. One does not want to play the same game forever.

Pathfinder;84391 wrote:

the only problem I have with it is the transference of identity. That is something that I still struggle with and work on with great interest.

Yes, the identity is lost though experiences and skills are maintained. I think we have to give up identity in order to start afresh. I am very interested in your take on this. I came to this based upon my observations of how people play games (I believe games is a great metaphor for life). When they get sick of a game and don't want to play it anymore, they stop it and start again.

Pathfinder;84391 wrote:

As for these who enjoy their lives of molecular degeneration and electrical impulsiveness, I just hope they at least learn enough to avoid getting their droppings mixed up with their food. okay man, so like, hey, like, is the electricity in my walls going to say hello when I pull off the drywall? man?

Yes. We both understand the absurdity of such a situation. But, who says that absurdity doesn't make life more interesting. I think that it is part of the journey - e.g .trying to equate humans with computers. And when one finally realizes the absurdity of this (who wants to sit there and talk to a computer for 80 years), then one gives up the notion. But I think the absurdity must first be experienced.

Thanks for your insights, and I would appreciate your thoughts on my concept of lost identity.

Rich

2 Replies

@richrf,

richrf;84414 wrote:

If I thought everything was random, I would do nothing. If I thought everything was determined, I would do nothing.

fortunately they way you think the world works has no bearing on how it actually does

Aristotle believed air rushing behind an arrow kept it in flight and that, even with aerodynamic properties being equal, heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects

didn't make him right did it

richrf;84414 wrote:

But I do something. Now, the question is why and how do I do it?

Neuroscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

one click could relieve you of your ignorance

just ... one click

---------- Post added 08-19-2009 at 09:08 PM ----------

richrf;84414 wrote:

Yes. We both understand the absurdity of such a situation. But, who says that absurdity doesn't make life more interesting. I think that it is part of the journey - e.g .trying to equate humans with computers.

rich do you agree that humans are physical

rich do you agree that they map (sensory) inputs to (motor) outputs in a meaningful way

don't try to dodge these questions

richrf;84414 wrote:

And when one finally realizes the absurdity of this ... then one gives up the notion.

fat chance, there are a lot of people in DARPA and IBM and Oxford and many other high places who disagree with you and they're right

1 Reply

@odenskrigare,

odenskrigare;84413 wrote:

it does but we're not talking about photosynthesis

... once the Pandora's box has been opened, we no longer have to ... that's the beauty of philosophy and science, no? Smile

...

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@Kielicious,

if you're going to claim that quantum effects play a role in neural computation you're going to have to pony up some evidence rather than (apparently) making a priori claims that they must be there

1 Reply

@odenskrigare,

odenskrigare;84417 wrote:

Neuroscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

one click could relieve you of your ignorance

just ... one click

For me, to give the attributes of first mover to neurons is equivalent to giving these attributes to God. The idea that Presto! neurons learn how to be conscious of themselves is like the Book of Genesis - And then Neurons made Man in its own likeness.

On the other hand, if consciousness precedes neurons and consciousness simply uses neurons to receive and transmit data, then it makes sense - to me. If you prefer to believe that you are a billiard ball careening around aimlessly through your life ricocheting off other billiard balls, then that is fine with me.

odenskrigare;84417 wrote:

rich do you agree that humans are physical

As deep as we can go right now, we are all made up of elementary particles which are --- undefinable in classical terms. What is amazing is that physicists dug deeper and deeper and deeper, and they found ... probability wave functions and nothing else, unless it is observed and then it seems to become something. And then, because they couldn't understand what they found, they recoiled and ran back to the world of Newton. An interesting phenomenon. Sort of like trying to shut Pandora's Box, but it is too late.

I believe that humans are fundamentally conscious beings that manifest as energy which in turn manifests as mass (whatever these may be). It is a continuum (inseparable) not an either/or. We know that energy is equivalent to mass. The next question is what collapsed (condensed) the energy into the mass?

Rich

1 Reply

@odenskrigare,

odenskrigare;84422 wrote:

if you're going to claim that quantum effects play a role in neural computation you're going to have to pony up some evidence rather than (apparently) making a priori claims that they must be there

... where the heck did you get the idea I was making any such claim? ... last I checked, I was simply questioning the validity of the determinism/quantum dichotomy dogma ... the dogma that to analyze something in terms of an all-determinism-all-the-time world and then to analyze it in terms of an all-quantum-all-the-time world is to have analyzed that something in terms of every possible world ... unfortunately, that dogma appears to miss the real world (where it's a contingent mix of the two) entirely ...

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@Kielicious,

I don't think anyone's saying that

which is why we have decoherence

the point remains that quantum effects apparently play no role in neural computation

1 Reply

@Kielicious,

I am absolutely fascinated by the way Oden keeps posting up those links and offering them as immediate solutions to our ignorance, as though these hypotheticals are proven undisputed facts.

Does he know that all of these issues are still being exhausted one debate after another within the scientific community? It seems like Oden has his bible and refuses to let anyone tell him his religion is being arguable. Is there pews in your church Oden?

Oh, and is just anyone allowed to touch those valuable science books or do they keep them in a veiled tabernacle?

I am so intrigued by Oden's fundamental belief and faith in his religion that I think I will begin to study his dynamics to see what makes a person become so tuned out when they commit to a religious following.

---------- Post added 08-19-2009 at 08:52 PM ----------

Rich,

I would like to discuss the ideas around the continuation of memories.

First of all I invite you to have a look at my blog at

http://naturalogic.blogspot.com/

just to get an idea of where I am coming from.

And next I am going to dig up an old thread from within this forum where I discussed thsi topic with another member. From there I will post it under a new thread and we can delve into it and see what others have to say as well.

0 Replies

@richrf,

richrf;84424 wrote:

For me, to give the attributes of first mover to neurons is equivalent to giving these attributes to God. The idea that Presto! neurons learn how to be conscious of themselves is like the Book of Genesis

except that, unlike Genesis, it's borne out by evidence

Rat brain flies jet ? The Register

hurr durr

richrf;84424 wrote:

On the other hand, if consciousness precedes neurons and consciousness simply uses neurons to receive and transmit data, then it makes sense - to me. If you prefer to believe that you are a billiard ball careening around aimlessly through your life ricocheting off other billiard balls, then that is fine with me.

rich if believing I were made of elf poop and rainbows made me the happiest person on Earth I still wouldn't believe it as a matter of principle

you haven't considered that I might also have a subtle appreciation for the dark themes of fiction and music I like coming to life

you know I think I'm going to play this is in grad school everyday

YouTube - Front Line Assembly - Complexity

I firmly believe that life imitates art, but which art? well it's clearly not turning out to be the bowl of fruit you seem to think it is

richrf;84424 wrote:

As deep as we can go right now, we are all made up of elementary particles which are --- undefinable in classical terms. What is amazing is that physicists dug deeper and deeper and deeper, and they found ... nothing. And then, because they couldn't understand what they found, they recoiled and ran back to the world of Newton. An interesting phenomenon. Sort of like trying to shut Pandora's Box, but it is too late.

So, we know that energy is equivalent to mass. The next question is what collapsed (condensed) the energy into the mass.

that's not what I asked you rich

I asked "are humans physical"

because that seems to be self-evident

and they map inputs to outputs in a meaningful way

so, by definition, they're computers

derp

---------- Post added 08-19-2009 at 10:02 PM ----------

Pathfinder;84427 wrote:

I am absolutely fascinated by the way Oden keeps posting up those links and offering them as immediate solutions to our ignorance, as though these hypotheticals are proven undisputed facts

what hypotheticals, where

saying that the claim that the brain is essentially a biological computer is "hypothetical" is like saying evolution is "just a theory" (which is retarded in itself)

the claim I am making isn't really disputed by people (with relevant knowledge) because it is borne out by so much evidence

the brain is a kind of computer, this is a cornerstone of modern neuroscience

and people who are older than either of us believe it too, don't try to hide behind your age

just deal with it

Pathfinder;84427 wrote:

Oh, and is just anyone allowed to touch those valuable science books or do they keep them in a veiled tabernacle?

how can you read them if you don't touch them

Pathfinder;84427 wrote:

I am so intrigued by Oden's fundamental belief and faith in his religion that I think I will begin to study his dynamics to see what makes a person become so tuned out when they commit to a religious following

stop conflating believing in reality with believing in made up ****

they're not the same thing even if I cling ardently to reality

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;84414 wrote:

Yes, the identity is lost though experiences and skills are maintained. I think we have to give up identity in order to start afresh.

But the identity cannot be completely lost, otherwise it would be impossible to say who was a reincarnation of whom. There must be some identifying thread - some common core - that links Person A to a later Person B; and a different thread linking Person C to a later Person D. But what could it be? And must it be transferred immediately from one person to another upon the death of the former, or can it lie dormant for a while?

These are the sort of questions you would need to tackle in order to argue the case for reincarnation. Personally, I think there's insufficient evidence.

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@odenskrigare,

odenskrigare;84431 wrote:

that's not what I asked you rich

I asked "are humans physical"

because that seems to be self-evident

and they map inputs to outputs in a meaningful way

so, by definition, they're computers

If you like spontaneous emergence, then that is fine with me. It can be a neuron figuring out how to cook a good meal, or God creating Man. Both are good stories. Personally, I find the God story more fun.

As for physical, well you have to define physical. I am thinking that mass was equivalent to energy. So, if you are asking me whether humans are energetic and are composed of elementary quanta, I would say yes. However, if you asked me what was quanta that humans are made up of and how you go from quanta to humans, I would have to say that I am still conjecturing.

And if you ask me where a human begins and where it ends, on a quanta scale, I would have to say, I don't know. There doesn't seem to be a beginning and end to anything. Everything seems to be entangled.

Rich

1 Reply

@Kielicious,

well in some sense you carry on past lives through your DNA

somewhere I probably have a wee bit of the Saxons who killed Vortigern and his men in me

0 Replies

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