lucid dreaming

@xris,

xris and others

I wanted to key in multiple me,s (Countless Alan's) and it came over wrongly as multiple "mens"

XRIS Why am I one of a kind? A billion Alan's would make hell a reality, or would it?

Here below is an essay I wrote some time ago based on my lucid dreaming or OOBE on another forum

Hi I posted this some months ago and got no response. I think it deserves reading

Hi, All,

I have gone to many places walked on the great grass prairies, and steps, mountains of wonder stood at the north of Scotland with the icy North Sea blowing on my body. I saw the earth in its blue beauty and rose up.

I have walked on monochrome moons and seen with mind sight blazing clouds of light and felt huge translucent beings flow through me awareness as I hovered somewhere in the deep void.

I have heard the vibrations beautiful music of the universe, as the stars blaze in glorious song praising god across vast space.

My mind overcome with the beauty wept, as I then knew that each living being was an essential building block a brick that holds up the fabric of reality and existence.

Merged in blissful everlasting union with the sublime and all living beings become one "titanic cosmic mind" Together are "GOD". "I am god" "I am infinite" "I am all" yet I remain "myself".

I have seen cities of pure composite light travelled and at the speed of infinity exiting the universe until it became a tiny dot in the utter vastness of the googolplex of other different universes.

Then blazing into the "Super Mother Universe" I observed the awesome golden Light infinite of the "Source of it all" and, could not comprehend the unimaginable beauty of the "Original Mind", and "Original Thought" that created existence.

We sang together the music of the orbs that we had become, now we were indestructible energy. Strange as it would be without the eternal the eternal, "I" and the eternal "YOU" there would be nothing at all.

"Back then we created all that there is"

This was not the end but only the beginning in the everlasting progression of existence, we all merged in the eternal moment singing the great song of creation.

Together in glorious harmony we rejoice for we are infinity eternal beautiful as we formulate a new existence more wonderful than the first.

What am I ?

"I AM LIFE"

"I AM ME"

"I AM YOU"

"I AM EVERYTHING"

Regards Alan

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan you expect too much from us mortals to examine in one post..regards Xris..

1 Reply

@xris,

But xris I am a mortal like you, just used a little poetic licence in that previous post

The only infallible human is the Pope? :perplexed:

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

But xris I am a mortal like you, just used a little poetic licence in that previous post

The only infallible human is the Pope? :perplexed:

Dont get me going on that Alan you know my opinions on the RC faith..cheers xris..

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@xris,

I experience lucid dreams about once a week. I don't understand what they mean or how I'm able to "feel conscious" in my dream worlds, but it happens without effort! Sometimes my dreams start out as a seemingly random story or experience and then I suddenly become aware that my body is in a dream state and I then say out loud to myself that I can do whatever I want, and I do. Sometimes the dream will then go on for "hours" in whatever direction I take it, but the environment either changes on its own or doesn't change at all.. that is to say I never said to myself, "okay, I want to transport to a mountaintop now." It's almost like I feel this is a necessary limitation while I'm dreaming. I've never tried to do it before.

/rambling

1 Reply

@patchouli phil,

Lucky you patch..can you understand my disbelief in the claim that those who are being abducted confuse their experience with lucid dreaming?I could never believe it was anything other than a dream..xris

0 Replies

@dizzy phil,

dizzy wrote:

I'm sorry Didymos but I have to disagree with you entirely. To start I offer my condolences that your ability to have non sporadic lucid dreams has not given you the opportunity to delve into the realms of your imagination to either gain insight or simply to ore at the splendiferous marvel that is dreaming and the mind.

Oh, it is a marvel, however strange, those lucid dreams. But do they offer an opportunity to "delve into the realms of your imagination"? I do not think so. An example will come further down the page.

There are two kinds of lucid dreams. The sort where you, once the dreaming has already begun, take some degree of control over the "you" in the dream and the imagery. The other sort, and in my experience far more rare, is when you go directly from being awake to lucid dreaming.

Going back to my Psychology 101 class, I recall something about what the professor said dreams most likely are: somewhat-randomly (not totally random, perhaps a cleaning out of thoughts and images familiar, not unlike computers dumbing useless information) firing neurons in the brain. Lucid dreaming is simply taking some degree of control over those neurons.

It's something like day dreaming except you have less control and the experience is a great deal more vivid.

dizzy wrote:

Have you worked out, which is the primary reality if a primary reality could be stated and have you also concluded beyond any doubt that the waking life is the life we should focus on. It is a very bold statement that you have made and I feel it would be a dishonour to the dreams of everyone if you didn't explain yourself further especially how you came to this most grievous misjudgement.

Are you asking me: 'which should be the focus of human life: waking life or the dream state?'

Yeah, waking life is where it's at. If nothing else, you spend more time in waking life. More importantly, waking life is essential to human life whereas lucid dreams are not essential to human life. Further, the content of dreams, lucid or otherwise, is derived from waking life: the content of waking life is not derived from dreams, except in some cases of art, like that one Kurosawa film. Note, though, that his dream-inspired work was not derived from lucid dreams, but instead from your typical dream.

dizzy wrote:

You are correct in saying that you know your dreams, that I cannot doubt or argue with, but you know not the dreams of me or any other so a passage like the one above is based entirely on speculation pertaining to what others may dream and therefore holds no wait in any argument or in this case open discussion.

I'm not so sure about this. Let me try to give an example.

Let's say I break my leg. As a result, I proclaim that "breaking a leg is painful". If we take your above logic, it would follow that breaking a leg is only painful for me. But we all know better. Unless you have a terribly rare disease which makes it impossible for you to feel pain, breaking a leg will, indeed, be painful.

I'm not saying that experiences are not subjective, but there are some universal aspects to experiences, as well.

dizzy wrote:

Both what is seen as the dream state and waking state are states all the same and unless you are of a higher intelligence, and if you are I will apologise now, you do not know.

Sure, waking life and the dream are human experiences. Make the best of both. But, in my experience, the ability of lucid dreaming does not make dreams, generally speaking, any more enjoyable nor less frightening. Instead, that's part of the problem: with lucid dreaming, you can make dreams enjoyable enough so that, at times, you would rather sleep 12 hours than sleep as needed for good health. Also, with lucid dreaming, you will find that instead of the typical nightmare, what you have is something closer to a nightmarish acid trip.

dizzy wrote:

How about giving your tips on how to get to and remain in the lucid state and we will let everyone else decide on whether the dream world has any value or significance and they can experience it for themselves and take what they will without just going on what you say it is and what it isn't.

Eh, you can find the tips I have all over the place. If someone really wants to know, they can find the information on their own. Like I said, I do not advise, nor do I see any real value in, lucid dreaming. Therefore, I would feel irresponsible were I to hand out the tips you request.

dizzy wrote:

Im sorry if I seem a tad harsh but come on we are talking about dreams here.

No problem, friend.

Let's just not confuse dreaming with the notion of dreams as synonymous with ambitions, hopes and goals.I have nothing against the later three.

2 Replies

@Didymos Thomas,

I wonder sometimes if the posters have ever experienced a true lucid dream. For many disabled the highlight of their life can be a lucid dream and although it is not a necessity of life,like art it can be an uplifting experience not available in reality.The point of this debate was to distinguish dreams from one another and if we have a new type of dream experience by these alien abducted.My concern was alerted when i read an article by a Harvard psychologist about the results she had published on these claims, she claimed them to be lucid dreams encouraged by an imaginative personality with delusional tendencies.You can imagine those who had kindly retold their stories to her without realising or being able to respond to her clinical conclusions.

1 Reply

@xris,

I have read, somewhere, that during a near death experience or out of body experience, if we can stretch the definition of what is a lucid dream and what is not,

I will try to look it up

That blind people, indeed people who have been blind since birth are ably to see with crystal clarity

XRIS

What is a RC? whatever that is I am not one!

0 Replies

@Didymos Thomas,

Hi Didymos thanks for the reply

[quote=Didymos Thomas]But do they offer an opportunity to "delve into the realms of your imagination"?[/quote]

To me they not only offer the opportunity to delve into the realms of my imagination but also enable me to push the limits of my imagination. I have found though that lucid dreaming has its limits to some degree as there is the hindrance of returning to an awakened state. The more I try to push my imagination the harder it is for me to remain lucid.

[quote=Didymos Thomas]There are two kinds of lucid dreams. The sort where you, once the dreaming has already begun, take some degree of control over the "you" in the dream and the imagery. The other sort, and in my experience far more rare, is when you go directly from being awake to lucid dreaming[/quote]

Never have I gone from an awakened state directly into a lucid one as going into a lucid state is always a realization for me whilst dreaming and I then take things from the point of my realization that I am in fact dreaming. What difference is there between taking control in a lucid state and an awakened state?

[quote=Didymos Thomas]Going back to my Psychology 101 class, I recall something about what the professor said dreams most likely are: somewhat-randomly (not totally random, perhaps a cleaning out of thoughts and images familiar, not unlike computers dumbing useless information) firing neurons in the brain. Lucid dreaming is simply taking some degree of control over those neurons. [/quote]

Isn't this just agreed upon theory or your professors theory on dreams or did I once again miss the seminar where dreams and the human mind had been cracked and we need not delve any further into thought about what may or may not be when it comes to the mind and dreams.

Why so rigid?

[quote=Didymos Thomas]Are you asking me: 'which should be the focus of human life: waking life or the dream state?'[/quote]

I am asking how you can be sure which the primary reality/state is.

[quote=Didymos Thomas]Yeah, waking life is where it's at. If nothing else, you spend more time in waking life. More importantly, waking life is essential to human life whereas lucid dreams are not essential to human life. Further, the content of dreams, lucid or otherwise, is derived from waking life: the content of waking life is not derived from dreams, except in some cases of art, like that one Kurosawa film[/quote]

Isn't all this subjective. My only real question once again is how can you be sure which is the primary reality and that the dream world is not the world we are meant to be in?

From what you have said about spending more time in waking life and that this is why it is the place to be (excuse me if I am wrong in misjudging what you have said) then you would agree that death is the place to be as it is the state you are in the most and it outlasts both dreaming and the awakened state considerably making life just a dream you have whilst being dead.

Life, dreaming and death are all constituents of what make up our experience and perception of our existence so how can one or the other be deemed more or less of a significance without fully understanding why we are here in the first place.

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Let's just not confuse dreaming with the notion of dreams as synonymous with ambitions, hopes and goals.I have nothing against the later three.

Do you have something against the former one? Ambitions, hopes and goals in the awakened state are pale in comparison to the ambitions, hopes and goals you may have whilst dreaming.

2 Replies

@dizzy phil,

OK GUYS

Maybe if rephrase my previous post I might get a response

Could the much written about phenomena of "near death experiences" and "out of body experiences" be a type of lucid dreaming?

2 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

OK GUYS

Maybe if rephrase my previous post I might get a response

Could the much written about phenomena of "near death experiences" and "out of body experiences" be a type of lucid dreaming?

Not to my knowledge of them .One can be induced i believe by drugs obe.. the other is a natural occurring event.My mother had an out the body experience when she was choking on a bone, she found it reassuring after the event.Ive read on about these obe but even though my mother was confident she had one i have not been convinced of the reasons.

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

Could the much written about phenomena of "near death experiences" and "out of body experiences" be a type of lucid dreaming?

In no way is a near death experience anything like or a type of lucid dream. I cannot answer for an obe.

Alan, can you distinguish between your dreams and your waking life? The gulf between dreams and life fall short in comparison to the gulf between dreams and what exists beyond life or the veil of our perceived existence.

I know when I am in this state, which some call the waking life. I know when I am dreaming be it lucid or otherwise and I certainly knew when it felt like my eyes opened for the first time and I could see and realized what I was seeing or perceiving or knowing was something I had seen, perceived and known before.

0 Replies

@dizzy phil,

dizzy wrote:

To me they not only offer the opportunity to delve into the realms of my imagination but also enable me to push the limits of my imagination. I have found though that lucid dreaming has its limits to some degree as there is the hindrance of returning to an awakened state. The more I try to push my imagination the harder it is for me to remain lucid.

If pushing your imagination makes it difficult for you to remain lucid, perhaps you will have a better go at pushing your imagination while awake.

dizzy wrote:

Never have I gone from an awakened state directly into a lucid one as going into a lucid state is always a realization for me whilst dreaming and I then take things from the point of my realization that I am in fact dreaming. What difference is there between taking control in a lucid state and an awakened state?

If you keep working on lucid dreams, you will one day have the experience of making a direct transition.

Between taking control in a lucid dream and in waking life? First, there is the degree of control: one has a great deal more control over one's self in waking life. Second, and most importantly, waking life is a reality you share with other sentient beings whereas lucid dreaming is a personal reality where only you matter.

dizzy wrote:

Isn't this just agreed upon theory or your professors theory on dreams or did I once again miss the seminar where dreams and the human mind had been cracked and we need not delve any further into thought about what may or may not be when it comes to the mind and dreams.

Yes, it's just a major theory of dreams. Just like evolution is just a major theory regarding the origin of species. Could these theories be wrong? Sure - which is why scientists still study the phenomenon. But we, as lay people, would be fools to cast aside science because it does not conform to our fantastical whims.

dizzy wrote:

Why so rigid?

This is not rigidity, it's sensibility. It's reasonableness. I am not a neurological researcher, and neither are you, I would imagine. Neither of us has any expertise here. Thus, we are best to look at dominant scientific theories for information. That's not rigidity, it's good sense.

dizzy wrote:

I am asking how you can be sure which the primary reality/state is.
Isn't all this subjective. My only real question once again is how can you be sure which is the primary reality and that the dream world is not the world we are meant to be in?

Again, duration. Also, consider that dreams represent a personal reality, whereas waking life is shared with other sentient beings.

Consider: which is the primary social reality? sitting alone in a room, or with other people? Clearly, with other people is the accurate response. The primary reality is the reality we should be most concerned with. Using basic utilitarian calculus (I can approach this from other ethical angles if you like), because waking life allows us the opportunity to promote happiness among the most number of people as opposed to lucid dreaming which can only, at best, promote the happiness of the dreamer, waking life must be the primary reality.

dizzy wrote:

From what you have said about spending more time in waking life and that this is why it is the place to be (excuse me if I am wrong in misjudging what you have said) then you would agree that death is the place to be as it is the state you are in the most and it outlasts both dreaming and the awakened state considerably making life just a dream you have whilst being dead.

Except that death is not a mental state: death is the lack of a mental state. Both lucid dreaming and waking life require that the agent be alive, have consciousness. Death does not have such requirements.

dizzy wrote:

Life, dreaming and death are all constituents of what make up our experience and perception of our existence so how can one or the other be deemed more or less of a significance without fully understanding why we are here in the first place.

You will have a tough time showing that this is true. Death, for example, is not a constituent of my experience or perception because I am not dead. Once dead, I no longer have conscious or unconscious experience nor do I have conscious or unconscious perception. Unless you can show that, once dead, an agent can continue to experience and perceive, this argument falls flat.

So we've ruled out death. We are left with Waking life and dreaming. See my argument above, regarding basic utilitarian consideration, as to which mental state deserves primacy.

dizzy wrote:

Do you have something against the former one? Ambitions, hopes and goals in the awakened state are pale in comparison to the ambitions, hopes and goals you may have whilst dreaming.

Nothing necessarily against the former one: my only concern is that some people might get carried away with lucid dreaming and begin to have more robust ambitions and hopes for their lucid dreams than they have for their waking life, that is to say, for the rest of humanity.

0 Replies

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

I have had, and continue to experience, lucid dreams.

Stick to reality. I could explain methods by which one can increase and increase control of lucid dreams, but I'd rather not do so. Instead, I suggest you recognize these dreams for what they are: odd neural firings. Do not read into your dreams. Focus on your waking life instead.

I may not be the most intelligent person around, but I know my dreams. Stick to real life; dreams end up being your desires. Base desires.

But reality is really so awesome, so huge we can simply not conceive its vastness in out tiny minds

Size of Earth in relation to other objects in the Universe

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Lucid dreams if anything can display how imaginative the human brain is , how little we know about its working.I think the expressive artistic section of this electrochemical lump hides in the same sector..

1 Reply

@xris,

xris wrote:

Lucid dreams if anything can display how imaginative the human brain is , how little we know about its working.I think the expressive artistic section of this electrochemical lump hides in the same sector..

XRIS

Did you look at the link? I think you will find it interesting

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan - interesting link. Even more incredible are the vast distances between bodies in the universe. But just because we are minuscule does not mean that focusing on this life should not be our object.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Alan - interesting link. Even more incredible are the vast distances between bodies in the universe. But just because we are minuscule does not mean that focusing on this life should not be our object.

Yes I think the differences between what we call the micro reality and macro are really an illusion that the mind can overcome.

For instance, our imagination can allow us to traverse the universe at almost infinite speed

Einstein once said, "what is really incomprehensible, it that we tiny humans can comprehend so much"

I think I can add a little essay of mine here based on your comment about the vast between bodies in the cosmos on the vastness of the universe

The unimaginable vastness of the universe

The distances in space are unimaginably vast beyond human comprehension. If I try, tell an uninformed that it is so many kilometres to the Sun or moon, will these people be able to comprehend these truly vast unbelievable distances.

The moon and sun are a mere two light seconds and eight light minutes respectively from the earth. Light travels at 300 000 kilometres a second or seven times around the earth in the same time. The moon is a mere 400 00 kilometres and the sun about 156 million kilometres from the earth respectively, next-door neighbors in fact.

Even this is near distance on cosmological scale is almost impossible for anyone to truly comprehend. What about our nearest neighbor, Alpha Centauri only 4.2 light years away and the next nearest star to the sun. Just around the corner on the vast cosmological scale.

It helps if one understands that the fastest object ever made by man "(spacecraft voyager at 100 000 kilometres per hour)" would take 80,000 years to get there.

Then if you understand how amazingly fast that object actually goes one might begin to gleaning some understanding of how far away Alpha Centauri is. Moreover, Centauri is our next-door neighbor!

Then we can move further. Let us say, Epsilon Eridani, 10 light years away. That is over twice as far - Voyager would take close to 200,000 years to get there. All evidence of human civilization would be pretty much gone in a few thousand years, given an average society lifespan of about 1000 years or less, We're talking 200 societies coming and going before Voyager makes it to Epsilon Eridani. Moreover, Epsilon Eridani is right next door.

The Andromeda galaxy, The galaxy nearest to our own milky way galaxy is mere two million light years away.. Voyager would take forty thousand billion years (40,000,000,000,000) to get there.

That is over 3300 times longer than the current postulated age of the universe, and that's our nearest galactic neighbor. There are galaxies that are estimated to be 12/13 billion light years from earth and the strange objects called quasars even future at 14 billion light years.

To reach far galaxies with a Voyager like spacecraft would take almost an eternity and it is obvious that this cannot be the ultimate method of crossing the universe. I foresee instant teleportation or some type of mind/spiritual means as the method used by advanced humanity in the very distant future to explore the universe.

Maybe they are not far at all, right next to us in a parallel universe or alternate dimension only requiring a portal to visit our reality

"The universe could be a sphere of infinite radius"

By Alan McDougall 15/9/2007

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

how can we ever imagine anything more than what our eyes can observe? what is distance ? it is the time between objects , remove the barrier of time and we are all neighbours?When we can not imagine one light year , what is a lifetime of light years , nothing more than the other side of a river without a boat.

1 Reply

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