lucid dreaming

@xris,

Ive just found the harvard psychologist who fell into trouble investigating this in the first place.John Edward Mack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
He had a rough time and has had mixed views on his conclusions.I dont think any professional body likes their brothers expressing unusual views but i dont see a problem as long as it open and logical.

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@xris,

xris wrote:

I wondered if there had been similar dream like experiences without alien abduction but i cant find any reports similar to them.

And that's exactly what I'm talking about - I've had them. Instead of alien abductions, it's bits of conversation.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

And that's exactly what I'm talking about - I've had them. Instead of alien abductions, it's bits of conversation.

Its not the same , you believe it was a dream these people dont. They cant be convinced it was a lucid dream.I can undestand how you see the relationship but for them it was a real experience.All the alien abductions reports have this mystical element from those who previously had heard of them to those who where oblivious of the history of alien abduction stories.It wont go away but it is still treated as a pariah subject.

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@xris,

No, I do not believe it was a dream: I have no idea if these snippets of conversations were dreams or not. I do not believe it was a dream. I just do not know.

It seems to me the reason why these people are unwillingly to entertain the thought of their experience being a lucid dream is their emotional connection to the event: first, they were probably pretty well convinced that aliens abduct people prior to the dream, and second, the experience gives them meaning; why else do you think people attend UFO conventions? It's to feel a sense of belonging. That some alien species picked you out of 6 billion makes people feel special.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

No, I do not believe it was a dream: I have no idea if these snippets of conversations were dreams or not. I do not believe it was a dream. I just do not know.

It seems to me the reason why these people are unwillingly to entertain the thought of their experience being a lucid dream is their emotional connection to the event: first, they were probably pretty well convinced that aliens abduct people prior to the dream, and second, the experience gives them meaning; why else do you think people attend UFO conventions? It's to feel a sense of belonging. That some alien species picked you out of 6 billion makes people feel special.

Well you had better make your mind up..you did not have lucid dream but these poor souls are not capable of believing they had lucid dreams..You have got it wrong they dont believe it was dream at all, not before a dream not while or after..They believe they where taken from their beds and transported to an alien ship..For them even when the concept of lucid dreams are explained to them they get angry when told that is what they experienced..They are not sick nor delusional , i repeat i have never had these experiences but i have had many lucid dreams.I cant see how able humans can not distinguish between dreams and actual reality experience.Its a phenomena that defies normal logic whatever your opinions on the subject.

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@xris,

"R.E.M" In hollywood movie making, there are methods to get you to rapidly look to one location of the screen by placeing a bright object in a location with a dim back round, ect.

Here is a example of what causes "R.E.M" while dreaming,

Close your eye lids and imagen a colorless apple in the far left corner of your vision in a colorless backround, then imagen a colorfull apple in the far left conrer of your vision in a colorless backround.

This will cause you eye's to focus on the colorfull object, yet imagenation is not as colorfull as real sight, yet for a split second in your imagenation the apple should take on life like color and that point in time your eyes should focus on that apple, since it is the same method used in film making...

(So basicaly "R.E.M" happens when your mind creates its own image, which causes your eye's to react and focus on those images from force of habbit...)

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@No0ne,

No0ne;50876 wrote:

(So basicaly "R.E.M" happens when your mind creates its own image,

Would I be correct in understanding this as having been intended to say '. . . your mind creates an image on its own?'

[quote=NoOne]which causes your eye's to react and focus on those images from force of habbit...)[/QUOTE]

Yes, motor loop feedbacks do the trick, it seems. Apparently, as the thalamic-sub-cortico systems feed to the visual cortex, that cortext also, in tandem (likely) feeds to the pre-motor area (at least) and the occular motor system is not under paralysis, so the eyes move along to the scenes projected forward. (Of course sleep walking (SW) is uncommon in REM, which is could be said to be an interesting twist.)

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@KaseiJin,

The brain paralyzes the bodies muscles during rem sleep to stop possible damage.On occassions this fails and the dreamer becomes a sleep walker or can even try to kill their partner.When the sleeper is on occassions still in this twilight zone and he is still paralyzed but is aware, his dream can become the night terrors where these mythical demons and hags can attack the dreamer.
I have experienced these terrors and they can be extremely frightening and i dont really want to experience them again.I have also had lucid dreams and they are quit the opposite , they are a pleasant experience and how the mind projects these fantastic moving images onto my consciousness is a wonder.
My interest and experiences made me question the explanation of alien abduction dreaming, they dont fit the night terrors or the lucid dream experience. No one i know is ever convinced that their terrors or the lucid dreams they experienced was reality.These abductors all of them claim it to be real experience. I have tried to find similar dreamers with different experiences but there is none except for the historical demons and hags of paralysis dreams.

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@KaseiJin,

KaseiJin wrote:

Would I be correct in understanding this as having been intended to say '. . . your mind creates an image on its own?' quote]

As I think of it, I intended to say, the brain creates the image and your mind perceives the images.

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@No0ne,

xris wrote:

Well you had better make your mind up..you did not have lucid dream but these poor souls are not capable of believing they had lucid dreams..

Actually, these people did not have lucid dreams (the people claiming alien abduction) as a lucid dream is a dream in which you are aware that you are dreaming. I have had lucid dreams, during which I am aware that I am dreaming, these people claiming to have been abducted did not have lucid dreams as they are were, and remain, unaware that they were dreaming.

xris wrote:

You have got it wrong they dont believe it was dream at all, not before a dream not while or after..

Yeah, I got that and never said a word to contradict that.

xris wrote:

They believe they where taken from their beds and transported to an alien ship..For them even when the concept of lucid dreams are explained to them they get angry when told that is what they experienced..They are not sick nor delusional , i repeat i have never had these experiences but i have had many lucid dreams.I cant see how able humans can not distinguish between dreams and actual reality experience.Its a phenomena that defies normal logic whatever your opinions on the subject.

No, these people are not sick in any clinical sense, but they are delusional: they think aliens abducted them, that's a delusion as aliens did not abduct them.

Not being able to distinguish between reality and a dream does not defy logic. Instead, it's empirically strange. Heck it was strange to me when it first happened, but there is nothing illogical about the confusion. It's could be, as in my case, a simple matter of memory: no different than not being able to recall who said some quote, except that one of the possibilities is that someone said the words in a dream rather than in waking life.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Delusional is making a judgement without we really understanding the conviction of these abducted..

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@xris,

Their conviction is exactly why they are delusional: a delusion is "a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact".

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Their conviction is exactly why they are delusional: a delusion is "a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact".

How can you make a judgement on possibly 70,000 americans without knowing the full story.If anyone experiences anything that can not be proved conclusively by science they are delusional ? does that include all those who believe in god, ghosts, ufos, telepathy, divination..the list goes on and on, all of them are delusional? If this is your position i will not hesitate to remind you in any further debate.This phenomena needs scrutiny and calling them all delusional will not encourage them to speak openly.Im not saying aliens have abducted them in their dreams but if we discount their stories we condemn all who wish to admit strange experience.Have an informed opinion by all means but initialy be open minded please.

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@xris,

I have not condemned not discounted any of these people. Instead, I can empathize with them given that I have had similar experiences, just not so extreme as their experiences.

We are all delusional in one way or another. I know I am.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

I have not condemned not discounted any of these people. Instead, I can empathize with them given that I have had similar experiences, just not so extreme as their experiences.

We are all delusional in one way or another. I know I am.

I think there is difference between delusional and not understanding your experience. Many report this strange phenomena who are at loss to understand the implication..What is real and what is imagined? as a philosopher i thought it would be a subject that defines reality.

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@xris,

There is a difference between a delusion and not understanding your experience. One might not understand and recognize the lack of understanding; but when one does not understand yet believes he understands, then you have a delusion.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

There is a difference between a delusion and not understanding your experience. One might not understand and recognize the lack of understanding; but when one does not understand yet believes he understands, then you have a delusion.

So why are they delusional? you know for certain what they experienced was understood and can be explained ?

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@xris,

They are delusion because they hold the delusional belief that they were abducted by aliens. This may be any given person's only delusion: I wouldn't know. But if someone believes that they were abducted by aliens, that person holds at least one delusional belief.

The experiences can be understood and explained. You think these people are the only ones who have lucid dreams about being abducted by aliens? I doubt that very much; these people who claim to be abducted are just the ones who cannot grasp the notion that the experience was a dream.

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@xris,

All have my dreams have been lucid, or at least have the appearance of being lucid. That is to say, I have never had a dream where I have felt I have had no influence, but it is possible that in all my dreams I have not actually had the influence but merely believed I had.

Additionally many of my dreams seem to be directed by David Lynch, cause for concern?

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

They are delusion because they hold the delusional belief that they were abducted by aliens. This may be any given person's only delusion: I wouldn't know. But if someone believes that they were abducted by aliens, that person holds at least one delusional belief.

The experiences can be understood and explained. You think these people are the only ones who have lucid dreams about being abducted by aliens? I doubt that very much; these people who claim to be abducted are just the ones who cannot grasp the notion that the experience was a dream.

Once again we return to the debate about lucid dreams. I have had lucid dreams and also paralysis dreams.I know alot of people who have had lucid dreams and none of them have ever made the claim they where anything other than a dream. Lucid and paralysis dreams dont last long, no more than a few minutes unlike these abduction "dreams"that appear to go on for hours.It also seems to happen to Americans more than anyother nation and it is on the decline for some unknown reason.I am not saying these souls where abducted by aliens and they could still be having dream like experience but they are not "lucid" as we would understand them.

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