richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 11:22 am
@gojo1978,
gojo1978;80001 wrote:
Why are you not prepared to give a simple answer to an extraordinarily simple question?

Either you do or you don't think it is morally acceptable for the USA, the richest country on Earth, to take no responsibility for the healthcare of its citizens.

Which is it?

Yes or no?


And you think it is an extraordinarly simple question? Life and death (which is basically what healthcare is all about), and who is responsible for life and death are not simple questions. And for you to to believe that the USA can be responsible for life and death makes the question even more complicated. Are you equating the the USA to God or something?

I will make it simple for you. Life and death is too complicated for simple Yes or No. How many people will die with health insurance? How many people will not die? Do you know? Citizens of countries that provide much less health care have longer or equivalent life expectancies. The U.S. is 24th in the world in infant mortality while currently spending twice as much on other countries. I don't think spending more money is the solution. The solution, I feel, lies elsewhere.

Rather than sickcare I would provide true health care - e.g. more exercise for children, fresh and nutritious food for people who cannot afford it, more places for people to aggregate to enjoy the company of others. This infatuation or reliance on hospital sickcare, I think is counter-productive. I would rather the money go into preventative areas such as clean water than sick areas such as hospitals.

Rich
gojo1978
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 11:28 am
@richrf,
richrf;80002 wrote:
Are you equating the the USA to God or something?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Hardly!

richrf;80002 wrote:
And you think it is an extraordinary simple question? Life and death (which is basically what healthcare is all about), and who is responsible for life and death are not simple questions. And for you to to believe that the USA can be responsible for life and death makes the question even more complicated.

I will make it simple for you. Life and death is too complicated for simple Yes or No. How many people will die with health insurance. How many people will not die? Do you know? Citizens of countries that provide much less health care have longer or equivalent life expectancies. The U.S. is 24th in the world in infant mortality while currently spending twice as much on other countries. I don't think spending more money is the solution. The solution, I feel, lies elsewhere.


This is sad.


For the 4th time, is it morally acceptable for the richest country in the world to fail to provide healthcare for its citizens?
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 11:32 am
@gojo1978,
gojo1978;80003 wrote:
For the 4th time, is it morally acceptable for the richest country in the world to fail to provide healthcare for its citizens?


Define healthcare and define provide and define richest country. I am ready for some fun. Smile

Rich
gojo1978
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 11:36 am
@richrf,
richrf;80005 wrote:
Define healthcare.

Rich


health⋅care

http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif /ˈhɛlθˌkɛər/ http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled Pronunciation [helth-kair] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA Use healthcare in a Sentence

-noun Also, health care. 1. the field concerned with the maintenance or restoration of the health of the body or mind. 2. any of the procedures or methods employed in this field.
-adjective Also, health-care. 3. of, pertaining to, or involved in healthcare: healthcare workers; a healthcare center.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:04 pm
@gojo1978,
gojo1978;80007 wrote:
health⋅care

http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif /ˈhɛlθˌkɛər/ http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled Pronunciation [helth-kair] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA Use healthcare in a Sentence

-noun Also, health care. 1. the field concerned with the maintenance or restoration of the health of the body or mind. 2. any of the procedures or methods employed in this field.
-adjective Also, health-care. 3. of, pertaining to, or involved in healthcare: healthcare workers; a healthcare center.


Too broad. Simplify it for me. There are tons of ways to restore health of body and mind.

Health care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to government classifications of Industry, which are mostly based on the United Nations system, the International Standard Industrial Classification, health care generally consists of Hospital activities, Medical and dental practice activities, and other human health activities. The last class consists of all activities for human health not performed by hospitals or by medical doctors or dentists. This involves activities of, or under the supervision of, nurses, midwives, physiotherapists, scientific or diagnostic laboratiories, pathology clinics, ambulance, nursing home, or other para-medical practitioners in the field of optometry, hydrotherapy, medical massage, occupational therapy, speech therapy, chiropody, homeopathy, chiropractice, acupuncture, etc. [7]

How about the other definitions? What does it mean to provide health care? Define richest country? You want me to answer your question? Well define it. Exactly what you mean. Let's see if you even know what you are asking? Smile

Rich
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:31 pm
@gojo1978,
gojo1978;79993 wrote:
Do you think it is morally acceptable for the richest country in the world to let its citizens die because they cannot personally afford private healthcare?
I don't think this question really gets at the heart of the issue. Healthcare is expensive, and the government's first and foremost responsibility is public health and not healthcare. It so happens that the US government is able to partially defray the burden of healthcare costs for adults over 65, for people under a certain income threshold, for veterans, etc. But no matter how poor you are, you can ALWAYS get vaccines, you can ALWAYS get emergency care and hospitalization, and though your choices of providers may be limited you can always get primary care. You can always have an expectation of sanitation and hygiene -- for instance we have very very little waterborne disease in the USA compared with developing countries, and that which we do have is mainly related to livestock and not human waste.

So the question isn't about "letting citizens die". The question is about how can the government create a health policy that is the most cost effective.

I'm with Rich, by the way, that improving Americans' nutrition would be highly highly effective. However, getting Americans to do it is extremely difficult and for all his plaintive aspersions about physicians, Rich has always refused to divulge what policy would actually work.

But if you want my opinion, I don't think doctors can or even should be relied upon as the main interventionalists in people's diet. Most people see their doctor once in a blue moon, and most people already know what their doctors will say about diet and exercise. The message needs to come from elsewhere, including the media. Control of dietary choice should be coming from the FDA and from other regulatory bodies. If they can regulate trans-fats, and if they can tax tobacco, then they can regulate crappy food. Kids should have mandatory exercise in school. Workplaces should create opportunities for fitness. Urban planners should make exercise conducive.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:41 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;80021 wrote:

I'm with Rich, by the way, that improving Americans' nutrition would be highly highly effective. However, getting Americans to do it is extremely difficult and for all his plaintive aspersions about physicians, Rich has always refused to divulge what policy would actually work.

But if you want my opinion, I don't think doctors can or even should be relied upon as the main interventionalists in people's diet. Most people see their doctor once in a blue moon, and most people already know what their doctors will say about diet and exercise. The message needs to come from elsewhere, including the media. Control of dietary choice should be coming from the FDA and from other regulatory bodies. If they can regulate trans-fats, and if they can tax tobacco, then they can regulate crappy food. Kids should have mandatory exercise in school. Workplaces should create opportunities for fitness. Urban planners should make exercise conducive.


Yes, I agree that there are many ways to address the issue of better lifestyles. Our current surgeon general, here in the U.S., has made it a priority, at least in her public statements. It would be nice, if the literature in the pharmacies would contain 95% of its material on how to maintain healthy lifestyles. Instead, the literature at my local pharmacy devoted one line, as I wrote in a previous post. I think the medical profession has to take responsibility for a significant part of current public thinking on this matter, and I would rather physicians take the lead on this forum as opposed to people such as myself.

Thanks for supporting the need for more public discussion of lifestyles and the way it affect health.

Rich
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 01:42 pm
@Theaetetus,
Rich,

What I find is a big problem with publicity about healthy lifestyles, is it always gets overcommercialized itself. It's a monetary holy grail. So we get fad diets, "organic" labels that don't mean anything other than a price hike, all sorts of supplements and vitamin combinations that add nothing that a healthy diet wouldn't, and we get food advertised as free of trans fats which, despite its merits, still may be calorically heavy and fatty.

We have semi-supermarkets at our gas stations now, so you can go fill up on crap while you're filling your car. We have a huge rack of meal-replacement bars, which are only worthwhile if they're actually replacing a meal. It's just an entire world of crap out there.

Many people in medicine are very into public health. But it's hard for a regular old doctor to make a change in public attitudes or in culture. We see people when they want to see us -- and they usually want to see us when something is wrong. At that point it's often too late. The messages need to come from elsewhere. And we need an environment in which being healthy is easier than being unhealthy. The opposite is true right now.
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 01:46 pm
@gojo1978,
gojo1978;79955 wrote:
Do you think it is morally acceptable for the richest country in the world to let its citizens die because they cannot personally afford private healthcare?


Absolutely not - it's an glaring contradiction. It places 'trade', economy or profit (depending on how you want to look at it) over the health of the citizenry. What's more, because the citizens fund collective efforts (i.e., pay taxes), I can't think of a more important collectively desired goal than healthcare for all.

Also, again, I can't imagine why anyone would think medical attention should be a for profit endeavor. Having it so places cashola over human life. Backwards and self-defeating our current system is.

Good question
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 01:52 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;80039 wrote:
Rich,

What I find is a big problem with publicity about healthy lifestyles, is it always gets overcommercialized itself. It's a monetary holy grail. So we get fad diets, "organic" labels that don't mean anything other than a price hike, all sorts of supplements and vitamin combinations that add nothing that a healthy diet wouldn't, and we get food advertised as free of trans fats which, despite its merits, still may be calorically heavy and fatty.

We have semi-supermarkets at our gas stations now, so you can go fill up on crap while you're filling your car. We have a huge rack of meal-replacement bars, which are only worthwhile if they're actually replacing a meal. It's just an entire world of crap out there.

Many people in medicine are very into public health. But it's hard for a regular old doctor to make a change in public attitudes or in culture. We see people when they want to see us -- and they usually want to see us when something is wrong. At that point it's often too late. The messages need to come from elsewhere. And we need an environment in which being healthy is easier than being unhealthy. The opposite is true right now.


I agree with everything you say. All I can do is say how I feel. That is, that health is maintained with good diet of fresh vegetables, fruits, grains and minimum amount of red meat. Moderate exercise of any type. Relaxation, maybe by doing yoga, taijiquan or something similar. Clean water and fresh air. I think that if more people simply stated these kind of ideas, then the ideas may begin to get some general understanding and maybe even acceptance.

Right now we are very far from this but over time, things may change. Thanks for supporting the idea of healthy lifestyles - whatever that might mean to each individual at this moment.

Rich
0 Replies
 
gojo1978
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 02:09 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil;80040 wrote:
Absolutely not - it's a glaring contradiction.


Exactly.

Khethil;80040 wrote:
It places 'trade', economy or profit (depending on how you want to look at it) over the health of the citizenry.


Exactly.

Khethil;80040 wrote:
What's more, because the citizens fund collective efforts (i.e., pay taxes), I can't think of a more important collectively desired goal than healthcare for all.


Exactly.

Khethil;80040 wrote:
Also, again, I can't imagine why anyone would think medical attention should be a for profit endeavor.


Exactly.

Khethil;80040 wrote:
Having it so places cashola over human life.


Exactly.

Khethil;80040 wrote:
Backwards and self-defeating our current system is.


Exactly, Yoda.

Khethil;80040 wrote:
Good question



Exactly. It's just a shame Rich refuses to say what we all know he thinks, and is instead trying to evade the question and reduce it to semantics.
0 Replies
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 04:04 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil;80040 wrote:

Also, again, I can't imagine why anyone would think medical attention should be a for profit endeavor.


Are you suggesting an all volunteer system, similar to the American Red Cross? But then again, even the American Red Cross pays salaries? So, I am confused about what you are advocating. Slogans are fine for politicians but there are still some economic costs that have to be realized and paid for:

1) What will be paid for?
2) By whom?
3) How long?
4) To whom?

This is no problem if the whole system is based upon volunteer efforts but no one in the medical industry works for free except for pure volunteers of which there are very few, and certainly cannot be counted on to be there all the time. People would like to make a living. If you think there is loads of money out there in some place, I can show you the latest debt load of the U.S. citizen, both personal and public. It is totally beyond belief. Far from being the richest nation we are a nation in extreme debt and it is growing at an astronomical rate. Someone has to pay for all of this because the rest of the world is no longer going to loan us money as they have done in the past.

Rich
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 05:57 pm
@richrf,
richrf;80062 wrote:
no one in the medical industry works for free except for pure volunteers
Yes, as long as people need to pay for food and shelter, most people will not be working for free whatever their walk of life.

I can tell you that hospital administrators and hospital legal council earn a hell of a lot more money than anyone who is doing clinical work, including physicians.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 08:06 am
@Theaetetus,
I thought I'd inject this anecdotal glimpse at "for profit" healthcare excerpted from today's Washington Post:

In August 2005, doctors at Urological Associates, a medical practice on the Iowa-Illinois border, ordered nine CT scans for patients covered by Wellmark Blue Cross and Blue Shield insurance. In September that year, they ordered eight. But then the numbers rose steeply. The urologists ordered 35 scans in October, 41 in November and 55 in December. Within seven months, they were ordering scans at a rate that had climbed more than 700 percent.

The increase came in the months after the urologists bought their own CT scanner, according to documents obtained by The Washington Post. Instead of referring patients to radiologists, the doctors started conducting their own imaging -- and drawing insurance reimbursements for each of those patients.

As they say in the old country, res ipsa loquitor.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 09:58 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;80519 wrote:
I thought I'd inject this anecdotal glimpse at "for profit" healthcare excerpted from today's Washington Post:

In August 2005, doctors at Urological Associates, a medical practice on the Iowa-Illinois border, ordered nine CT scans for patients covered by Wellmark Blue Cross and Blue Shield insurance. In September that year, they ordered eight. But then the numbers rose steeply. The urologists ordered 35 scans in October, 41 in November and 55 in December. Within seven months, they were ordering scans at a rate that had climbed more than 700 percent.

The increase came in the months after the urologists bought their own CT scanner, according to documents obtained by The Washington Post. Instead of referring patients to radiologists, the doctors started conducting their own imaging -- and drawing insurance reimbursements for each of those patients.

As they say in the old country, res ipsa loquitor.


Yes. Unfortunately, the medical profession is not willing to police itself and call a stop to the excessive number of procedures that are being performed and to admit to the profit motive behind much of what is happening within the health industry. Cosmetic surgery business is an example of a profit center that has almost nothing to do with health (there are exceptions), and everything to do with making money in a way that actually puts the patient at risk.

Rich
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 06:59 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;67316 wrote:
As someone in the United States that can not afford both tuition for college and health care, I wonder why the U.S. cannot get on the boat with the rest of the developed world and offer health care to all of their citizens. I have read most of the argument for and against universalized health care, and the arguments against it appear to be little more than rhetoric propagated by the insurance and pharmaceutical industry. There is much chatter as well from people that seem to think that the government would not be effective at running a health care plan. Why is the government trusted with running the military, but cannot be trusted to run health care?

So I ask, why should we, or why shouldn't we have universalized health care so all Americans can receive the care they need regardless of pre-existing conditions. Other things to consider: is it moral for people to profit from health care? Why is health care in this country tied to employment? Why are people so concern with an increase in taxes when it means that there would be less out-of-the-pocket expenses associated with health care? What is the best form of paying for health care?
Historically speaking,, I have heard that trends toward socialism usually end up in economic chaos. Chili is a good example.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 08:13 am
@Theaetetus,
Chile is hardly a good example of state socialism. Examine the role Pinochet and his generals, Kissinger and the CIA played in crushing Chilean socialism. Learn how many nations Dr. Kissinger can no longer dare land in lest he be tossed in a cell to await trial.

To dispel your misconceptions of socialism look to any of the Scandinavian countries, France, Germany or even Britain. Canada too is widely considered by many Americans to be socialist if only by virtue of universal health care. It was our Liberal government that stood up to our banks when they wanted to follow their American cousins down the path of Casino Capitalism. The result? When the Washington/Wall Street fraud unravelled, Canada was just about the only Western state that didn't have a single bank fail. None of ours came even close to failure.

No, I think if it's economic chaos you're looking for, focus much closer to home.
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 08:21 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;80705 wrote:
Chile is hardly a good example of state socialism. Examine the role Pinochet and his generals, Kissinger and the CIA played in crushing Chilean socialism. Learn how many nations Dr. Kissinger can no longer dare land in lest he be tossed in a cell to await trial.

To dispel your misconceptions of socialism look to any of the Scandinavian countries, France, Germany or even Britain. Canada too is widely considered by many Americans to be socialist if only by virtue of universal health care. It was our Liberal government that stood up to our banks when they wanted to follow their American cousins down the path of Casino Capitalism. The result? When the Washington/Wall Street fraud unravelled, Canada was just about the only Western state that didn't have a single bank fail. None of ours came even close to failure.

No, I think if it's economic chaos you're looking for, focus much closer to home.
Just curious. What is your tax rate?
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 08:52 am
@Theaetetus,
Our tax rates are somewhat higher than in the United States, at least on federal income taxes. Of course, buried in those tax levies is the funding the central government sends to the provinces to support healthcare. While healthcare services are a provincial function, the central government has a mandate to ensure uniformity of services across the country.

Comparing tax rates is a real apples'n oranges exercise. Norway, for example, has a standard tax rate of roughly (I recall) 50%. But what it returns to its citizens for that is eye-opening. The fact is they're content with it because they're pleased with the way it's spent and what it does for them.

Those sons of Vikings have such silly ideas. For example, Norway is oil rich. Yet it sets most of its oil riches aside - for future generations! They believe it wouldn't be fair to all those little Vikings yet unborn to lavish it on themselves today.

Unfortunately today tax rates have become grossly misleading. That, in part, is because some countries are amassing so much debt in long-term instruments, forestalling the day of reckoning. Your Comptroller-General from the Bush era spent the past few years telling anyone who would listen that America sits astride a debt bomb where the central government's debts and unfunded obligations (Medicaire, Social Security) represented an average debt of $480,000 per household. Remember, that was before the current economic crisis and trillion-dollar bailouts. That number also doesn't include state, municipal, corporate and individual indebtedness.

So how each nation chooses to handle its debts is also a factor in weighing relative tax levels. Until this global meltdown my government had, for many years, been running budget surpluses, paying down our overall indebtedness at a decent rate. That, too, was reflected in our tax rates. We were generally happy working toward the day where our government might be debt free.
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 01:58 pm
@Theaetetus,
I think it important to bear in mind that when we look at how other countries have implemented Nationalized Healthcare, we need to remember its just that; how other countries have chosen to set up their system in accordance with their priorities, ideals, preferences and so on.

When we take into account even some of the vast number of differences (national resources, distribution systems, tenants of trade, restrictions and so on) I think it obvious that it in no way reflects how it might end up looking in the U.S.

So yea, this whole comparison argument - though its worthwhile to look at - neither endorses nor condemns the concept as a whole.

Thanks
0 Replies
 
 

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