A Cold Hell

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Perhaps I misunderstood Grimlock. My take is that truth is experience based; therefore, language can never fully explain the truth of an experience.

Ah, I see. And not just language, but our intellectualizing in general. A quote that comes to mind: "If you only intellectualize drinking wine without actually drinking it, you will never know the experience of being drunk".

Quote:

Is it any sillier for women to pursue physical perfection, than for men to pursue physical perfect. I've always thought bodybuilding competitions, male or female, to be silly.

Is it any more silly for a woman to be in a bodybuilding competition? Well, it's not any more silly than a male being a nurse. I think there's just preconceived gender roles, and sure, they can definitely be discriminative (I'm not saying I'm above this). I think women should be equal, but I don't think women should try to do everything males do just for the sake of doing so. Again, it seems when you go to such an extreme to be equal, you wind up just defeating the purpose. Good intentions, bad strategy.

PS: (I can think of 3 objections to my argument, right off hand. This is why I don't like to have an argumentative opinion. I consider. Sometimes, though, for the hell of it, I jump off the fence... and I will with bodybuilding, a sport that I value.)

I think I just find more aesthetic appeal in bodybuilding males than with bodybuilding females. With both cases, it isn't necessarily natural, and no, bodybuilders don't necessarily have good health (and many don't) However, the male bodybuilding of the late 70's and early 80's is what I aesthetically find the most pleasing. Vince Gironda and Frank Zane embody physical perfection, in my opinion. I do not find women aesthetically pleasing with an unnatural amount of muscle. Again, personal preference, not discrimination ( or maybe it is)

Quote:

As for feminism - the Republican reaction to the Obama statement was pure politics. McCain used the same phrase when attacking Hillary.

The point wasn't to focus on that particular example, and perhaps to further support my point I should have used another. I think you got my idea, though, even if you don't agree.

Anyway, the point is, men are better than women. Case closed.

PS: Didy, you can close this thread whenever you see fit.

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@Didymos Thomas,

First, I would like to express my deepest, most squeamish regret that a discussion of female bodybuilding ever entered this thread. I love women, for "objective" and spiritual reasons, and couldn't imagine preferring a discussion of bozons or morons or whatever particle you mentioned to some genuine visceral experience. Maybe back when I was older (thanks, Bob Dylan), but not now. Your desires aren't demons whispering in your ear; they're just as much a part of you as your intellect.

Desire is ultimately what moves you to action. Right now, your desires for and against objective truth are pulling in opposite directions, apparently with roughly equal force. The result: inaction and depression. You know how I define belief? Belief is a state in which the desires are brought into rough order - made to work in concert - by the force of our intellect. "True" belief is both difficult to achieve and extremely powerful, whatever the conception of reality that attends it.

Notice here that I begin to distinguish between reality and truth. Reality exists - I'll not deny that - but that doesn't let "truth" off the hook in the here and now. The question remains: is reality reducible to something that can be understood in human terms? Is there a giant calculus problem that can explain my existence and tell me what to do when my mother calls but I don't feel like talking to her?

Does science offer an answer, a final QED on which we can all curl up and die? Is reality ultimately predictable, deterministic, or is there an infinity (other than time) thrown into the equation somewhere that torpedoes the whole damned thing? If you believe in free will, the value of "truth" is emasculated in the present tense. Assuming truly free will, there is nothing predictive - no way of fully expressing reality as it happens no matter how sophisticated the empirical system. Truth can be approached looking backwards as a description of what happened, but looking for it here, as it unfolds, is quixotic in the profoundest sense of the word.

I find it interesting and wondrous that the more intelligent religious minds, the deeper they dig into their belief structure, approach this question as well, and have in fact been aware of it for millenia. "Mysterious ways" is not merely a justification for injustice, it is a statement that free will (god's in this case, but no matter) precludes truth in the common human conception of the word (ie. a rule that applies in every case).

1 Reply

@Grimlock,

Grimlock wrote:

First, I would like to express my deepest, most squeamish regret that a discussion of female bodybuilding ever entered this thread. I love women, for "objective" and spiritual reasons, and couldn't imagine preferring a discussion of bozons or morons or whatever particle you mentioned to some genuine visceral experience. Maybe back when I was older (thanks, Bob Dylan), but not now. Your desires aren't demons whispering in your ear; they're just as much a part of you as your intellect.

Why do you have squeamish regret? I'm not quite following. If I came off as one that overvalues a gender, on a being level, that wasn't my intent; I do truly believe in equality of humanity. However, I do aesthetically prefer some motives on one or the other gender, and not necessarily both - it's personal preference. I didn't exactly regard this as a demon, and in fact, I can't even fathom what that means. I'm not even convinced anything in my life should be based on the notions of "good" and "evil" (I may have misunderstood your demon implication). So, to say the belief is a demon, or even an angel, doesn't sit well with me.

Quote:

Desire is ultimately what moves you to action. Right now, your desires for and against objective truth are pulling in opposite directions, apparently with roughly equal force. The result: inaction and depression. You know how I define belief? Belief is a state in which the desires are brought into rough order - made to work in concert - by the force of our intellect. "True" belief is both difficult to achieve and extremely powerful, whatever the conception of reality that attends it.

Precisely. And often times, I do have desire. There are months where I dedicate much time to my body and mind, in the form of weight training, intellectual discussion, and reading. These are the times I have belief, in the terms you mention. Then there are other times where seeking an objective truth seems almost absurd. People around me presumptuously write my condition off as "depressed", one of my more down-to-earth friends just says, "You're crazy". In the end, there are very few that are even willing to delve into an intellectual discussion that goes beyond a psychiatric labeling - and this is why I'm even here to begin with. Nonetheless, it appears that I'm seeking a "True" belief.

Quote:

Does science offer an answer, a final QED on which we can all curl up and die? Is reality ultimately predictable, deterministic, or is there an infinity (other than time) thrown into the equation somewhere that torpedoes the whole damned thing? If you believe in free will, the value of "truth" is emasculated in the present tense. Assuming truly free will, there is nothing predictive - no way of fully expressing reality as it happens no matter how sophisticated the empirical system. Truth can be approached looking backwards as a description of what happened, but looking for it here, as it unfolds, is quixotic in the profoundest sense of the word.

My gut tells me that science can't offer a final answer. This is why I spoke of logical positivism and fideism, and how I don't believe we should rest on either extreme. There are some "truths" I believe science doesn't have a place with. Assuming truly free will, truth in the present may be quixotic, but it can still give meaning. This is also assuming time is a construct, because if everything is actually happening at any given point in time on another time line (all possibilities on all possible universes), even if we have free will on this time line, it would have less meaning to me. And that is what we humans do - we apply meaning. If I can assume that even though we construct time internally there is a "truth" within the paradox, I can begin branching off. Otherwise, it's a bit difficult to even begin on the journey of a "True" belief. I have little motivation, if my actions don't have meaning. And I can't apply this meaning without first knowing some scientific truths.

(I apologize if I seem to go off on tangents and don't have a steady 'flow'.)

2 Replies

@Zetherin,

Quote:

Anyway, the point is, men are better than women. Case closed.

I hope this isn't a serious claim.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

I hope this isn't a serious claim.

Never stop hoping!

(of course it wasn't serious)

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Why do you have squeamish regret?

She blinded me with science.

Zetherin wrote:

Precisely. And often times, I do have desire. There are months where I dedicate much time to my body and mind, in the form of weight training, intellectual discussion, and reading. These are the times I have belief, in the terms you mention. Then there are other times where seeking an objective truth seems almost absurd.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. So you seem to be seeking a belief system that will allow you to overcome inertia (spiritual or "real" inertia? is there a difference? isn't that what all belief systems do?). You seem to paint your motivated periods and your absurd periods as opposites. I would say you're never lacking desire (the idea of "lacking desire" contradicts my concept of life), only direction. Perhaps you should look for belief precisely in the absurd?

Quote:

Assuming truly free will, truth in the present may be quixotic, but it can still give meaning. This is also assuming time is a construct, because if everything is actually happening at any given point in time on another time line (all possibilities on all possible universes), even if we have free will on this time line, it would have less meaning to me. And that is what we humans do - we apply meaning.

Ok, this point seems to be where the rubber is meeting the road in your mind:

1) Does "free will" exist (ie. non-atomic materialist universe)? If yes: proceed to question 2. If no: game over.

2) Dualism or not? If no: proceed to question three. If yes see: gland, pineal.

3) Is energy added to, taken away from or ultimately balanced within the system? If answer is "taken away from" see: death, heat. If answer is "ultimately balanced" see: recurrence, eternal. If answer is "added to" (by free will?) see: ???.

You seem to desire an answer that leaves the system open. If free will, as causal force, actually adds energy to the system (the ultimate denial of materialism) then we are not, cannot be on a neverending loop back to the present, even assuming that time is infinite. Infinite (Finite) = Repeat of Same. Infinite (Infinite) = Infinite. The unbearable lightness of being. Einmal ist keinmal. Non-recursive eternity. Raise your hand if you think Milan Kundera has read Nietzsche.

If you don't believe you're a robot without free will (who is ultimately headed for heat death...the perfect denial of life?), then why on earth are you looking for meaning? Why do you want "truth" to give you meaning? Free will seems to me to be an assumption of responsibility. If your free will is truly causal, there is no meaning to look for, to be given, or to assign, only meaning to create. So build the best rational construct for reality you can (accepting that you're doomed to failure insofar as you want it to be "true"), round up your desires, get them on the boat and ride out the flood in style.

Maybe a better question...

Does the desire for non-recursive eternity, wanting to be the ultimate creator of "the only you" constitute the most deeply profound hubris imaginable? Not that hubris is such a bad thing, but perhaps you are paralyzed by the responsibility you seem to want to assign yourself? The responsibility of creating value and meaning is too much, and you want none of it? Simple existence (is, was, and always will be...ah, language) may be far "lighter" than what you seem to want out of life. Is the weight of "once" not perhaps heavier than the weight of "always"?

You don't seem particularly lost or unenlightened to me. Maybe you just need more time to digest the ideas you've already consumed? In the meantime, my advice is to go out and get laid.

1 Reply

@Grimlock,

I've felt that way before. The more you know, the more you realize you know nothing of the grand scheme. The more education you receive, the more insignificant you begin to feel in the universe. Peep my signature at the bottom: the only difference is the date on a ball of clay.
But once you accept your own insignificance and the inevitability of your future non-existence, then you can just say: Hey, why not do something fun for the moment? Why not get happy?
Realize that you are a monkey with a computer in your head floating through space on a blooming compost pile and that this is your only existence; and learn to love it and appreciate it. That's what I've done.
I went from discontent in my analysis of the universe and life's purpose to revelry of the small things: that a rose can grow through concrete, that entire ecosystems continue to live in the deepest, darkest caves on Earth, that a single spider can ride an air current across the pacific ocean from Figi to Hawaii (this is true, look it up!). Essentially, I can appreciate the tenacity of life's will to exist, and I am forced to love myself and the world for what it is in all it's evil and all it's splendor and all of it's insignificance.

Life is good, Zetherin. Just roll with the punches until the end of the final round and fight the good fight.

---------- Post added 01-12-2010 at 11:15 AM ----------

Sorry if this seems out of nowhere, I did not read the 15 pages of responses and this is a direct response to your original post.

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