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Thu 4 Sep, 2008 02:59 pm
I decided I'd post this here as it does involve the study of the mind - the mind being mine. The next couple paragraphs are random. There is little progression between themes, ideas, but this is intended, as otherwise would not be a reflection of the chaotic nature I live with.
The progression:
As the years have progressed, I've engaged in much philosophical, 'intelligent' (intelligent for me, that is... it may not even surface what some may comprehend) conversation. I've spent countless hours debating abstract concepts, the existence of greater intelligence, and even things of a less abstract nature, like the fundamentals of physics, etc.
I've recently come across what I like to call a cold hell. I don't like to use the word depression as it is too liberally used, and the word's definition is so skewed at this point... I just stray from using it (much like I don't enjoy using insanity). But, I'm not a functioning member in this society anymore. I'm not ashamed of this, however, as I don't really even see the point in functioning. That is, I don't really see a purpose in anything I do. I've gone (I'd love to use the word 'advanced' in the stead of 'gone', however, it appears the more knowledge I've acquired the lower my levels of happiness have become) so far off the 'beaten path', that if I were to act the thoughts out I have, I'd most definitely be in an insane asylum. Not because I'd intentionally inflict pain upon others, but because I'd defy almost every value I'd come across (mental pain, perhaps). The simple things in life, I cannot enjoy; nor do I want to enjoy.
I attempt to consistently pick apart every aspect of my life, what I'm feeling, why I'm feeling it. For instance, why do I love my mother? Well, I seem to have an innate empathy towards humans, especially for those that have a close familiar association. Why do I feel it's wrong to rape children? Because in our society it is frowned upon, there are legal ramifications (knowing that in ancient Greece this was a normal action... mind boggling), and I somehow feel it's a 'wrong' thing to do. Why do I? Our society constantly shifts and I'm nothing more than a remnant, a piece of dirt brisked off the surface of a larger mound. I won't waste your time with further examples, but every time I feel a feeling (sometimes not even a feeling, just something that 'compels') towards something, whether it be another human, experience, object, I am forced to analyze. It really sickens me. No, not that I'm analyzing, but just the knowledge. The things you begin to see when you let all your inhibitions go - all the things that keep you grounded, keep you a 'member of society'. It's scary, but enlightening.
I've come to the conclusion that 'good' and 'evil' are applied by us humans, and I've spoken in more detail in other threads on this forum. So, I can't really value things that most humans around me can. If something 'good' happens, I refrain from feeling the feelings of excitement that others often do. If the little girl gets saved, it was bound to happen - there are many instances where the girl doesn't get saved, so why do we overdramatize the instance where she does by calling it a 'miracle'? Furthermore, why are we overvaluing the human because she is young and a female... isn't that discrimination? No, not in our idealistic society. If the universe doesn't judge, why do I, why do we all? Of course, I'm forced to judge, it's in my nature. And of course, to ensure my survival, I don't go around acting like an ******* consistently. However, the whole concept of good and evil isn't even partially thought out - it's such a simplistic idea, and it's really just mind boggling how 99% of people abide by it, base their actions on it. There is no consideration, it's either this or that; there are rarely shades of grey. All I ask is to consider.
All of this gets deeper, but for those that delve into deeper thinking, and for those that have delved even deeper than I, I won't insult your intelligence by naming more examples (though, I was getting really ancy to get into religion!)
The stage:
So, I've reached a stage where nothing can be enjoyed. I can't find purpose, and often debate whether there is even a purpose. I don't wish for death, I don't wish for life. I've considered suicide, but frankly, I'd rather stick around and try to come to other conclusions. I'm not suicidal, nor am I homicidal, as I'd rather allow others to experience 'life'. I have little motivation to do mundane activities, but I force myself to do them in order to please those around me, and the hope that it may be beneficial to my future (for instance, in order to progress in my thinking, period, I need money... which means graduation of college, at the least)
I call this the cold hell, though I can't adequately describe through this language what it is. The mere fact that I've already used 'cold hell' begs for preconceived notion.
Why did you write this, Zetherin?
I do and I don't know. I know why I think I wrote it, but the real reason I wrote any of this may come to my vision at a later date. Or it may not. If you've read up to this point you've glimpsed through a window. Why does it matter? You decide, but I'd love to hear your thoughts, so share them. I won't be so naive to think that this is the end; I'm excited to learn more, and I welcome any advice.
@Zetherin,
Zetherin,
Know this:
1) You are utterly insignificant.
2) In the white hot crucible of our pain we are purified. (Nietzsche)
3) Everything changes.
iconoclast.
@iconoclast,
iconoclast wrote:Zetherin,
Know this:
1) You are utterly insignificant.
2) In the white hot crucible of our pain we are purified. (Nietzsche)
3) Everything changes.
iconoclast.
Can you elaborate on #2? I do feel a pain, and sometimes I'd equate it to a hot crucicle. But, how will I be purified? Through death you mean? I've looked forward to death, but it's not like I'll even be able to enjoy death... because I'll be dead! There is no end, because even when there is an end, I won't be conscious. In lamen's terms, I won't be able to sit back and go "Ah, I finally don't have to consider anything anymore! Joy!" Bah!
Also, a more straightforward question to you and others. How do you continue living in this society joyfully having reached a higher level of situational awareness (the awareness is what I describe)? I wish I wasn't even born with the average intelligence I do have to even be able to process much of what I think. If I wasn't able to comprehend, or even had the drive to analyze, I feel I'd be happier. Ignorance is bliss? Thoughts?
@Zetherin,
Zetherin,
I don't know your sufferings in the way that you know them, nor I suspect do either of us know the full reasons for them. #3 is an elaboration on #2 - this won't last, but will purify you, whatever that means in terms of the reasons for which you suffer. I don't mean death - I mean that your suffering is necessary to your personal growth. #1 is meant to offer you some perspective on this - 1 of 7.5 billion, not to undermine the significance of your personal struggle, but to enable you to step back from it, and view it in context.
iconoclast.
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:I attempt to consistently pick apart every aspect of my life, what I'm feeling, why I'm feeling it.
... sounds like an addiction to reason ... don't get me wrong - reason has its place ... but everything in moderation ... you need to allow yourself just to "be" every once in awhile without analyzing things ... from what I understand, meditation might be able to help you dig yourself out of this hell - essentially, you train your mind to sort of tip your hat to thoughts and emotions as they pass by without attaching yourself to them and getting all balled up in knots ... and as you get better at controlling your thoughts in meditation, this skill bleeds over into your "waking" life ... for me, the trick was as simple as photography - analyzing the interplay of form, color, light, and shadow is a lot less depressing than analyzing whether or not there is inherent meaning to the universe ... and the fact that I and my camera get out into the wilderness with a motly bunch of folks who love the outdoors and are always genuinely happy to see me has rubbed off - finding the right kind of people to hang with can definitely be an outlook changer ... all this may seem unreasonable and counterintuitive to you at this moment, but the point is that if you're unhappy where your at it's time to try something different ... meditation, photography, hiking, mountain climbing - whatever works to break the addiction ...
@paulhanke,
Reason doesn't need moderation. It needs prudence and a dab of spirit.
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:Reason doesn't need moderation. It needs prudence and a dab of spirit.
The mention of meditation could lead to this prudence, no? And spirit... what is spirit? The quote you've provided sounds thoughtful, and maybe I'm just in the minority that can't fully grasp the intent, however, I have no clue what you're referring to. Remember, there's always a problem with semantics, so spell it out to me, baby!
@paulhanke,
paulhanke wrote:... sounds like an addiction to reason ... don't get me wrong - reason has its place ... but everything in moderation ... you need to allow yourself just to "be" every once in awhile without analyzing things ... from what I understand, meditation might be able to help you dig yourself out of this hell - essentially, you train your mind to sort of tip your hat to thoughts and emotions as they pass by without attaching yourself to them and getting all balled up in knots ... and as you get better at controlling your thoughts in meditation, this skill bleeds over into your "waking" life ... for me, the trick was as simple as photography - analyzing the interplay of form, color, light, and shadow is a lot less depressing than analyzing whether or not there is inherent meaning to the universe ... and the fact that I and my camera get out into the wilderness with a motly bunch of folks who love the outdoors and are always genuinely happy to see me has rubbed off - finding the right kind of people to hang with can definitely be an outlook changer ... all this may seem unreasonable and counterintuitive to you at this moment, but the point is that if you're unhappy where your at it's time to try something different ... meditation, photography, hiking, mountain climbing - whatever works to break the addiction ...
I appreciate your contribution. Meditation. Finding something that just makes me happy, without analyzing? Don't dwell on the logic, reason, understanding of something, just... be. I certainly have trouble just 'being'. I always think of that Socrates quote: "The unexamined life is not worth living". Maybe I should say **** Socrates and lie low from the intellectual radar. It's easier said than done, though.
@Zetherin,
If you are interested in meditative practices, find a teacher.
@iconoclast,
iconoclast wrote:Zetherin,
I don't know your sufferings in the way that you know them, nor I suspect do either of us know the full reasons for them. #3 is an elaboration on #2 - this won't last, but will purify you, whatever that means in terms of the reasons for which you suffer. I don't mean death - I mean that your suffering is necessary to your personal growth. #1 is meant to offer you some perspective on this - 1 of 7.5 billion, not to undermine the significance of your personal struggle, but to enable you to step back from it, and view it in context.
iconoclast.
I've recently watched a video on Nietzsche's perception on hardships, so I presume this is what you're referencing. This suffering, in the end, will have fulfilled me. That is, for one to see the true happiness in life, one must suffer - the events that involve suffering you should not perceive as negative but rather a stepping stone to overall fulfillment (happiness?). I've often thought about what Nietzsche meant by this fulfillment, but in the end I've only been left with :brickwall:
Again, the more knowledge I gain, the less happy I become. It doesn't appear to be benefiting my personal growth. And what is personal growth, anyway? Acquiring bounds of information and being able to logically absorb it all, staying, for lack of a better word, sane? I grow, I suffer, and I'm supposed to reap benefits. It almost sounds as morbidly annoying (yes, I've joined these words) as when my mom says she's going to pray for something. I tell her to pray to put some more money into my bank account, but God hasn't answered yet! This blind faith - another one of the insanities in this world.
View my struggle in context, hm. I really wish I could do this, though I don't know the contextual lens with which to view.
I suppose all I want in the end is peace. Peace of mind. Though, even if I got peace of mind, what does it matter?
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:If you are interested in meditative practices, find a teacher.
I'm not interested in meditative practices.
@Zetherin,
Then you'll have no use for a teacher of meditation.
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:Then you'll have no use for a teacher of meditation.
If the teacher taught me meditative practice, I may be interested.
I take that back. I forgot that it'd involve 'money'. You're right, I don't have a need for one.
@Zetherin,
Quote:If the teacher taught me meditative practice, I may be interested.
If you are looking for meditative instruction, I imagine you would look for a teacher who teaches meditative practice. I mean, if I am looking for a meditation instructor, I'm not going to look for a basketball coach.
Quote: I take that back. I forgot that it'd involve 'money'. You're right, I don't have a need for one.
If the teacher does request monetary compensation, run away.
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:If you are looking for meditative instruction, I imagine you would look for a teacher who teaches meditative practice. I mean, if I am looking for a meditation instructor, I'm not going to look for a basketball coach.
If the teacher does request monetary compensation, run away.
What I meant is that if I was instructed, I may be interested. In other words, it doesn't matter about my current interest level, as I don't really know much about meditation. Sometimes I need a little push into something to really find value in something. Sometimes you need to do this to me :poke-eye: in order for me to reevaluate the purpose of my eye. But yes, I may look for a teacher, I don't know. Maybe I won't. I'm leaning 90% on the no, as I feel lazy.
And I would think that any instructor, whether it be meditative or otherwise, requests monetary compensation, no?
@Zetherin,
As a disclaimer, I have never had a meditation teacher. I have found teachers, but not a teacher for me. So, my advice here is the advice given to me by one of my scholarly teachers regarding meditation and meditation teachers.
Essentially, you will find a teacher when you are ready to find a teacher. My (scholarly) teacher said that if I wanted him to direct me toward a teacher, he would literally point his finger in a direction - it would be up to me to do the rest. Not exactly 'here's the address', you know?
Quote: And I would think that any instructor, whether it be meditative or otherwise, requests monetary compensation, no?
I have had many drumming teachers, and I had to pay all of them. But we're talking about spiritual (not necessarily religious) teaching. There was a Buddhist monk who lectured in my town some years ago - he and his wife made their living cleaning houses. They would save up, and then travel so that he, the monk, could lecture.
If the teacher wants you to pay him/her, they are not the sort of teacher you want to study under. The compensation for their instruction should be beyond material acquisition, just as the benefits you reap from their instruction should be beyond material acquisition.
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:As a disclaimer, I have never had a meditation teacher. I have found teachers, but not a teacher for me. So, my advice here is the advice given to me by one of my scholarly teachers regarding meditation and meditation teachers.
Essentially, you will find a teacher when you are ready to find a teacher. My (scholarly) teacher said that if I wanted him to direct me toward a teacher, he would literally point his finger in a direction - it would be up to me to do the rest. Not exactly 'here's the address', you know?
I have had many drumming teachers, and I had to pay all of them. But we're talking about spiritual (not necessarily religious) teaching. There was a Buddhist monk who lectured in my town some years ago - he and his wife made their living cleaning houses. They would save up, and then travel so that he, the monk, could lecture.
If the teacher wants you to pay him/her, they are not the sort of teacher you want to study under. The compensation for their instruction should be beyond material acquisition, just as the benefits you reap from their instruction should be beyond material acquisition.
A bit off topic, but I wanted to share this quote I stumbled across:
Knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful --Samuel Johnson
The quote struck me, and I believe Johnson was right!
You have experience with meditation, though, even though you haven't had a teacher? How do you think it could help me?
@Zetherin,
Quote:A bit off topic, but I wanted to share this quote I stumbled across:
Knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful --Samuel Johnson
The quote struck me, and I believe Johnson was right!
He was right. No doubt about that. And he was right on many levels.
Quote: You have experience with meditation, though, even though you haven't had a teacher? How do you think it could help me?
I've stumbled around in the dark a few times. I like to read. Picked up a few things from reading, and my scholarly teacher I mentioned earlier introduced me to some very,
very basic practices.
How could meditation help you? Gah! What a question. I'm not sure I can give a direct answer. A calmer mind, perhaps? I'm not much of an example, to be sure. If you want to know how meditation will help you, pay attention to those who have a meditative practice. Not these jack-ass college kids (the term 'Boulder Buddhist' comes to mind, they like to go into the country wearing the ceremonial robes and smoke weed) or aged and deranged hippies. You might read some Thich Nhat Hanh. He's an accomplished author, many books. YouTube has a wealth of lectures by various Buddhist and Taoist wise men. Check them out.
We've gone off topic, haven't we? I thought that might happen. One more suggestion, though; Robert Thurman's work is a great place to start, as far as reading materials are concerned. Check out "Inner Revolution". Part history text, part philosophical treatise, and all around eye-opening book.
Oh, and remember that meditation is not a purely eastern endeavor. Western traditions have their own meditative practices; just as valid, just as helpful and enlightening. Again, Socrates comes to mind, and you can also find these practices in the three major monotheisms.
@Zetherin,
Hi Zetherin!
... Wanted to say I appreciated your original post. Very descriptive, and it felt very honest.
To me it felt like reading something I could have writen, if I had the writing skills, if my life had been just a bit different than it has been. Personally, I've had some "anchors" that have allowed me to (try to) rise past the cold conclusions of a skeptical, cynical, and self-doubting mind without having to abandon my mind altogether. Not that these "anchors" are doubt-proof, but they have been reasonable enough to keep me going, believing, and most of all, hoping.
Good luck to you on your quest, and I pray that your cold hell meets its end while you're still living.
-Luke
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:He was right. No doubt about that. And he was right on many levels.
I've stumbled around in the dark a few times. I like to read. Picked up a few things from reading, and my scholarly teacher I mentioned earlier introduced me to some very, very basic practices.
How could meditation help you? Gah! What a question. I'm not sure I can give a direct answer. A calmer mind, perhaps? I'm not much of an example, to be sure. If you want to know how meditation will help you, pay attention to those who have a meditative practice. Not these jack-ass college kids (the term 'Boulder Buddhist' comes to mind, they like to go into the country wearing the ceremonial robes and smoke weed) or aged and deranged hippies. You might read some Thich Nhat Hanh. He's an accomplished author, many books. YouTube has a wealth of lectures by various Buddhist and Taoist wise men. Check them out.
We've gone off topic, haven't we? I thought that might happen. One more suggestion, though; Robert Thurman's work is a great place to start, as far as reading materials are concerned. Check out "Inner Revolution". Part history text, part philosophical treatise, and all around eye-opening book.
Oh, and remember that meditation is not a purely eastern endeavor. Western traditions have their own meditative practices; just as valid, just as helpful and enlightening. Again, Socrates comes to mind, and you can also find these practices in the three major monotheisms.
We are never off topic, for whatever topic we are currently on, is where I want to be.
Thanks for your advice.
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