A Cold Hell

@NeitherExtreme,

NeitherExtreme wrote:

Hi Zetherin!

... Wanted to say I appreciated your original post. Very descriptive, and it felt very honest.

To me it felt like reading something I could have writen, if I had the writing skills, if my life had been just a bit different than it has been. Personally, I've had some "anchors" that have allowed me to (try to) rise past the cold conclusions of a skeptical, cynical, and self-doubting mind without having to abandon my mind altogether. Not that these "anchors" are doubt-proof, but they have been reasonable enough to keep me going, believing, and most of all, hoping.

Good luck to you on your quest, and I pray that your cold hell meets its end while you're still living.

-Luke

So you use hope and belief to guide you? Do you think that hope (and no, I'm not thinking in a religious context) is a good thing to have in order to calm the mind. How did you overcome your "anchors"? It appears you imply that you are in a better state of mind now, and so I'm curious as to how you've made the progression.

Ironically, cynicism spawns from a group of ancient Greek philosophers dubbed "Cynics". Here's a little quote from wikipedia: "The Cynics rejected all conventions, whether of religion, manners, housing, dress, or decency, advocating the pursuit of virture in a simple and unmaterialistic lifestyle" I apologize if you already knew this, but I just recently found that there was actually a school in ancient Greece regarding this. I thought it was interesting that being cynical has such stigma now, while back then it appears it was more accepted. That is, it's almost required of us now to abide by these ideals, without question! If you do not abide, you are insane, or at the very least, lazy, and not a valued member in society. Or maybe it was that way back then, also?

And when you pray, who/what are you praying to? Do you find resolve in prayer, or was that just a phrase you enjoy using when you find a connection with another being and want to bestow a sense of empathy?

I appreciate your input.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

I certainly have trouble just 'being'. I always think of that Socrates quote: "The unexamined life is not worth living". Maybe I should say **** Socrates and lie low from the intellectual radar. It's easier said than done, though.

... I'm not saying to abandon reason; and I'm not saying to leave your life unexamined ... you've just got to find a way to control and/or distract yourself from the compulsion every now and again ... and that is going to require some effort on your part - but probably no more effort than you already expend over analyzing everything Wink

...

1 Reply

@paulhanke,

paulhanke wrote:

... I'm not saying to abandon reason; and I'm not saying to leave your life unexamined ... you've just got to find a way to control and/or distract yourself from the compulsion every now and again ... and that is going to require some effort on your part - but probably no more effort than you already expend over analyzing everything ...

So you believe I'm over-analyzing? I have a disturbing idea that perhaps I'm not analyzing enough. Maybe through further knowledge I can find peace; avoidance will only prolong my suffering.

Though, maybe I'm wrong. I've posted this before and I'll post it again:

'A group of 4 students, all studying at MIT, top of their class, enter a diner to get something to eat. Upon receiving their food, one guy notices that the caps for the salt and pepper shakers had been switched - the salt cap on the pepper bottle, the pepper cap on the salt bottle. The group decided that they would solve this problem, and so developed an elaborate plan to sift the contents of each bottle into the appropriate container, while retaining every last grain of the salt and pepper. After almost 15 minutes of plan development and preparation in order to make sure they had this process down pat, the waitress comes back to the table bewildered at the sight of salt and pepper dispersed. She asks, "What on God's earth are you all doing?!". One of the MIT students respond, "Oh, we had realized that you had placed the salt and pepper in the wrong shakers, and so developed this plan to sift all the contents into the appropriate shaker."

The waitress responds, "Why didn't you just switch the caps?".'

Perhaps some things I am overthinking, but I can't really draw a line as to what those things are.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin,

I haven't watched that video. I didn't know you had. I've found these three things to be true. And I'll tell you something else - they're faking it. They pick out a few achievable goals and forget the rest. They smile through gritted teeth - and hang on, concentrate on something boring when such thoughts arise. You can't, can you? I almost envy you - you have a wonderous and terrifying journey ahead of you. You will be crushed in the depths of the oceans and raised to the tops of the clouds. You may not make it - for insanity and death will seek to claim you, but there's something else only you know. What's that? Don't tell. Seek that.

iconoclast.

1 Reply

@iconoclast,

iconoclast wrote:

Zetherin,

I haven't watched that video. I didn't know you had. I've found these three things to be true. And I'll tell you something else - they're faking it. They pick out a few achievable goals and forget the rest. They smile through gritted teeth - and hang on, concentrate on something boring when such thoughts arise. You can't, can you? I almost envy you - you have a wonderous and terrifying journey ahead of you. You will be crushed in the depths of the oceans and raised to the tops of the clouds. You may not make it - for insanity and death will seek to claim you, but there's something else only you know. What's tat? Don't tell. Seek that.

iconoclast.

I suppose I should rent out a Switzerland cottage now in order reserve my insanity dwelling. I'm going out Nietzsche style, baby!

On a more serious note, I'm looking into Buddhism. This quote of his struck me:
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

This is the only religion I've come across that has logical teachings, which could very well offer me peace of mind, while still allowing consideration! Hm.

To do list:

A.) Rent Swiss cottage
B.) Find meditation instructor
C.) Resurrect Buddha

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zeterin,

I'd say watever makes you appy, but as it is, I'll say this:

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools...

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

iconoclast.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

So you believe I'm over-analyzing?

... when you get to the point where analyzing the statement "If the universe doesn't judge, why do I, why do we all?" brings you to despair and/or emptiness and this makes you just analyze harder and harder - then you're over-analyzing to the point where you've dug yourself in a rut and can't see that there are healthier ways to approach these questions ...

1 Reply

@paulhanke,

paulhanke wrote:

... when you get to the point where analyzing the statement "If the universe doesn't judge, why do I, why do we all?" brings you to despair and/or emptiness and this makes you just analyze harder and harder - then you're over-analyzing to the point where you've dug yourself in a rut and can't see that there are healthier ways to approach these questions ...

Please provide a few examples of healthier ways to approach the question. I'd really appreciate some sound advice to accompany the evaluation. If I just receive the evaluation, it doesn't help!

Let it be known that I appreciate everyone's replies. Thanks.

2 Replies

@Zetherin,

Quote:

Please provide a few examples of healthier ways to approach the question.

Figure it out for yourself, what are you, a man or a sheep? Overthink? I'm not sure you think at all. You want other people to do all your thinking for you. You might aswell just kneel down beside your mom and shut the fcuk up.

iconoclast.

1 Reply

@iconoclast,

iconoclast wrote:

Zeterin,

I'd say watever makes you appy, but as it is, I'll say this:

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools...

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

iconoclast.

I wish I could better see the fulfillment you imply. Should I not try to discover peace, then? Should I rather embrace the pain and let it break me, grinding my flesh into the pavement, day in and out, in the hope that I will become a "Man"?

Sometimes I dream of becoming a Christian once again just so I can be grounded. This was that, this was that, and that's it. It was a much simpler life. Then I took a philosophy course at my university. Then I started reading abstract theories. Then I started having deep intellectual conversation. No, no, no, it's time to go back to level one. Such a simpler life, it was.

Even with this said, given the choice, I'd stay in my current position Smile

0 Replies

@iconoclast,

iconoclast wrote:

Figure it out for yourself, what are you, a man or a sheep? Overthink? I'm not sure you think at all. You want other people to do all your thinking for you. You might aswell just kneel down beside your mom and shut the fcuk up.

iconoclast.

My thought was that I could benefit from interacting with others and reap the benefits of constructive discussion. It appears also that I'm not the only one with this thought, as this forum exists. I'm assuming you disagree with this sentiment. If that's the case, I disagree with you. What you have just written reminds me of a portion of Zarathustra, and I don't agree if Nietzsche advocated one to be an introvert (which would make sense now, considering I know he spent most of his life, alone, in that Swiss cottage)

I feel in order to progress in thinking, it is very beneficial to discuss with others. I think those that believe they can do it all themselves (to further come to points in enlightenment) are the sheep, not the men. It takes a man to realize that he isn't on this journey alone, and that it's most certainly not wrong to seek guidance. Even from a logical standpoint, it makes sense to address experiences with others - if someone experienced something similar and may have clear insight to help, why would you not try to seek the advice? Why would you try to figure it out alone? Why not take a hand, and then have the potential to advance and refine your thinking even further? I would never be that naive to think my thoughts are completely original and noone, somewhere, at sometime, has gone through, and even surpassed, the epiphanies I've had.

Regardless of all this, the emotional response you flew at me is very intriguing. I'd love to hear more about me kneeling down beside my mother. Perhaps she does have some words of wisdom. If Nietzsche was still alive, would you kneel down beside him and shut the fcuk up?

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin,

What's the difference between kneeling down beside you mom and following the teachings of Bhudda. I thought you were looking for your own truth and am disappointed to find you're looking for someone else's. Seeking your own truth does reuqire that you:

Quote:

embrace the pain and let it break me, grinding my flesh into the pavement, day in and out...

But if it's peace your after, get stoned and play video games until your mind dies.

iconoclast.

1 Reply

@iconoclast,

iconoclast wrote:

Zetherin,

What's the difference between kneeling down beside you mom and following the teachings of Bhudda. I thought you were looking for your own truth and am disappointed to find you're looking for someone else's. Seeking your own truth does reuqire that you:

But if it's peace your after, get stoned and play video games until your mind dies.

iconoclast.

Have you ever considered that 'truth' may lie outside, that guidance can be helpful in one's path? Further, that 'truth' may lead to peace?

I disagree with this mindset that has one finding the 'truth' by being an introvert, and disregarding all others' ideas. You're making the grave error in assuming I will not be thinking all of this out myself. In the end, the reality is, one has to make his own peace. Regardless of what ideas one is exposed to from others, every one reason eventually has to reason for themselves. You appear to be the owner of a perspective where you believe requesting the help of others is parallel to one that is a sheep, a follower, one lacking the capabilities to further advancement in philosophical, or even any intellectual thinking, for that matter. I tend to disagree.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Please provide a few examples of healthier ways to approach the question.

... the universe is lifeless ... dead as a doornail ... was at the Big Bang; still is now ... yet here is life ... so the lifeless universe must contain the potential for life ... the Earth is a realization of that potential ...the evidence is clear: life can erupt from utter lifelessness ... so let's move to the next level ... life is meaningless ... no purpose whatsoever ... none when the first amoebas formed in Earth's oceans; still none now ... yet here is meaning ... a mother nursing her newborn ... meaning absolutely radiates from them ... we palpably feel it ... so meaningless life must contain the potential for meaning ... humankind is a realization of that potential ... the evidence is clear: meaning can erupt from utter meaninglessness.

From such a perspective, "If the universe doesn't judge, why do I, why do we all?" is not a reason to despair ... it is a cause for open-mouthed wonder ... pause and take a moment to look around - the evidence is clear.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin,

Quote:

In the end, the reality is, one has to make his own peace. Regardless of what ideas one is exposed to from others, every one reason eventually has to reason for themselves.

Start as you mean to go on, I say. I think the pursuit of truth is essentially introvert, though I'd say personal - because it's my existence that poses the question and my existence is all I can really know. Do you not find, when you try to express something, that the essence of what is meant is lost in expression? I've become quite good at putting across almost exactly what I mean, but still there's a difference, and this is the problem. It's the difference between knowing a thing and knowing about a thing. If you think you can content yourself with the inauthentic experience of merely knowing about a thing, then good for you - but I never could. Even from childhood I had to stick my fingers in the fire to see if it really was hot. Same with the electric socket. It hurt, but then I knew what burn and shock really meant. I know that knowing the truth of yourself and the world is a painful journey, but it's also a wonderful experience - marked by soaring heights and deep depressive hollows, and a series of plateaus that fool you into thinking you've reached the peak, only so you can look back in shame on your niavity, and are serially humbled when you turn around and find the mountian still to climb. It's soul destroying - I've died a thousand times, before I was born into my present life, my present self. But now I know myself, my world and my truth - and you know nothing of it for knowing about it. You have to make the journey for yourself.

iconoclast.

3 Replies

@iconoclast,

It's always funny to see people disparage what they do not understand, and what they do not even attempt to understand.

1 Reply

@iconoclast,

iconoclast wrote:

Zetherin,

Start as you mean to go on, I say. I think the pursuit of truth is essentially introvert, though I'd say personal - because it's my existence that poses the question and my existence is all I can really know. Do you not find, when you try to express something, that the essence of what is meant is lost in expression? I've become quite good at putting across almost exactly what I mean, but still there's a difference, and this is the problem. It's the difference between knowing a thing and knowing about a thing. If you think you can content yourself with the inauthentic experience of merely knowing about a thing, then good for you - but I never could. Even from childhood I had to stick my fingers in the fire to see if it really was hot. Same with the electric socket. It hurt, but then I knew what burn and shock really meant. I know that knowing the truth of yourself and the world is a painful journey, but it's also a wonderful experience - marked by soaring heights and deep depressive hollows, and a series of plateaus that fool you into thinking you've reached the peak, only so you can look back in shame on your niavity, and are serially humbled when you turn around and find the mountian still to climb. It's soul destroying - I've died a thousand times, before I was born into my present life, my present self. But now I know myself, my world and my truth - and you know nothing of it for knowing about it. You have to make the journey for yourself.

iconoclast.

How am I not making the journey, how am I not experiencing this life? My quest for knowledge doesn't imply that I am just knowing about things. The thoughts and experiences I put myself through daily are evidence that I know things, not just know of things. I think you are making a grave oversimplification in judging the way I interact with life based on my asking for advice. You are aware that the sheep quote you spewed earlier was most likely influenced from another source, like Nietzsche. You have openly quoted him during the first post you made, so I know he has influence on you. How is that influence or quest for knowledge any different than the one I am attempting to uncover? I'm sure you have grown and refined your thinking through other sources - do not begin to try to fool me into thinking you are some kind of secluded entity that is *experiencing* the world in some kind of unique way, with no bearing or influence from anything else. You're not.

I think you are placing yourself on a pedestal above others that don't lead the life you live. Further complicating this is the fact that you seem to presumptuously judge others, when you know not how they really experience their lives. And in the case that they don't stick their finger in the fire, it doesn't make you any better for having done so. Also, don't humor me writing something like this: "If you think you can content yourself with the inauthentic experience of merely knowing about a thing, then good for you - but I never could", when a moment ago you told me to shut the fcuk up and sit in front of my mother. Your intentions have been noted, and they most certainly don't seem to fall on the 'good for you' mark. Lastly, I don't think it's your say to call the experience inauthentic. You must remember that your experience, however fulfilling you find it is, may be just as transparent and diluted without you even knowing! If you are happy with your experience, that is what matters. Let's not force others to experience their lives the way we want.

And to conclude, don't be so naive to think you have finished your journey. You're never finished.

0 Replies

@Didymos Thomas,

Ddiymos Thomas,

Quote:

It's always funny to see people disparage what they do not understand, and what they do not even attempt to understand.

Is it? I always find oblique smirking asides from people smug in thier obedience to another amusing - as they demonstrate both the lack of real susbstance in that which such people find satisfying, and in such people. Hahaha!

iconoclast.

2 Replies

@iconoclast,

iconoclast wrote:

Ddiymos Thomas,

Is it? I always find oblique smirking asides from people smug in thier obedience to another amusing - as they demonstrate both the lack of real susbstance in that which such people find satisfying, and in such people. Hahaha!

iconoclast.

You don't have to be smug in obedience to receive guidance or consider another's thoughts.

Perhaps this is the gap in communication between us.

0 Replies

@iconoclast,

Zetherin,

Maybe you are. What do I know? Only what I've been through. Don't take any notice of me - or anyone else for that matter. Take your own path. Better yet, make your own path. That's what I honestly think - and I mean no offense to you or anyone else by it, except perhaps Didymos Thomas.

Laughing

iconoclast.

1 Reply

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