what is god

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Quote:

umm... God doesn't eat or take on any human form or likeness.. the text is quite clear.. it's 3 angels and not God.

This is strange. You see, I am going through various versions of the text, Genesis 18, and they all are pretty clear about one of the three being God. The chapter ends with this:
"33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place."

If you don't mind, I would very much like to see how your scripture renders this passage. Even Armstrong is under the impression that God meets with Abraham in this way.

Quote:

Sorry, looks like it was 33:11 (that's what you get for not looking it up)

11 And the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face

It's cool. Point taken, but the book also says:
He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. [Exodus 3:6]

Which I think should settle the point and show that, at least at times, Moses' encounters with God are terrifying.

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I will agree to that if you will agree that intrinsically God does not change
Our perception only changes based on our understanding.

Sure, God is God. The way people view God changes.

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Still, the Lucifer is not mentioned in Sefer Enoch (the book of Enoch) And I have never seen any evidence that the Dead Sea sect or any non-roman group used the word Lucifer (which is a latin word)

Of course the Latin word Lucifer was not used. In 2 Enoch, the Slavonic Enoch, we find stories of fallen angels.

From Chapter 29:3 And one from out the order of angels, having turned away with the order that was under him, conceived an impossible thought, to place his throne higher than the clouds above the earth, that he might become equal in rank to my power.

4 And I threw him out from the height with his angels, and he was flying in the air continuously above the bottomless.

And then later, in Chapter 31:
4 The devil is the evil spirit of the lower places, as a fugitive he made Sotona from the heavens as his name was Satanail (Satan), thus he became different from the angels, (but his nature) did not change (his) intelligence as far as (his) understanding of righteous and sinful (things).

You can read through this here:
The Book of the Secrets of Enoch

It's not terribly long. You will see that Satan is given the narrative of a fallen angel. That's the origin of the connection. The source, the place early Christians got the idea from.

Oh, and thanks for the info on Kaballah. Very interesting to see the connection; I had not noticed before.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

This is strange. You see, I am going through various versions of the text, Genesis 18, and they all are pretty clear about one of the three being God. The chapter ends with this:
"33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place."

If you don't mind, I would very much like to see how your scripture renders this passage. Even Armstrong is under the impression that God meets with Abraham in this way.

God is not a physical entity. The reason why at first it states that there were 3 men, and later it states that there are 2, is not because one of them is God, it is because the only purpose of an Angel is his task. After he has completed his task then he no longer exists. One of the 'men' completed his task before arriving at Lot's house.

And when it says "Abraham returned to his place" it means he returned from his meditative state.

Didymos Thomas wrote:

It's cool. Point taken, but the book also says:
He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. [Exodus 3:6]

Which I think should settle the point and show that, at least at times, Moses' encounters with God are terrifying.

The word for fear here is 'Yira', which means Awe. The word for fear is 'Pachad'.

There is a concept that is brought by King Solomon, "The Beggining of Wisdom is Fear(Yira) of God" [proverbs 1:7]

The greater one understands God's greatness, the more one is in Awe of him. So Mosheh's 'Fear' of God just proves that he is on a higher level and the fact that he looks away shows his greater level of humility.

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Of course the Latin word Lucifer was not used. In 2 Enoch, the Slavonic Enoch, we find stories of fallen angels.

So the connection to Lucifer was made afterwards and it was based on a Mistranslation.

2 Replies

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

the word for fear here is 'Yira', which means Awe. The word for fear is 'Pachad'.

There is a concept that is brought by King Solomon, "The Beggining of Wisdom is Fear(Yira) of God" [proverbs 1:7]

The greater one understands God's greatness, the more one is in Awe of him. So Mosheh's 'Fear' of God just proves that he is on a higher level and the fact that he looks away shows his greater level of humility.

Bin,
The more I listen to you and what you have been trained to believe, the more I see "satan" laughing. (To use religious terms), as you interpret "awe" as fear rather than "wonder" and "amazement". How come, I wonder? Many years ago I came to the realization that fear and faith cannot co-exist harmoniously together. One or the other has to go. The fearful mind is "satan's" playground. To instill in the mind of man a "fear of God" is one of the grandest "tricks" ever played on mankind and is, if you want to know the truth, evil personified.

Yes, I believe with all my heart, the mind is "God's domain" if it is not "hindered" by fear. Fear in any context prevents God's presence. Without His presence, the mind is "open territory", so to speak and can conjure up horror's that can drive one insane, especially if those fears are in any way of God Himself. Considering the shape of the world, (see list), it makes me wonder "who" inspired the term "fear of God" in the Bible as it also goes on to speak of His "jealousy, wrath and vengefulness"? Hmmm? (Satan, laughing in the background).

Religiously speaking, of course.

William

2 Replies

@William,

Quote:

God is not a physical entity. The reason why at first it states that there were 3 men, and later it states that there are 2, is not because one of them is God, it is because the only purpose of an Angel is his task. After he has completed his task then he no longer exists. One of the 'men' completed his task before arriving at Lot's house.

And when it says "Abraham returned to his place" it means he returned from his meditative state.

The whole text is figurative - of course God is not a physical entity. If we talk about God, we have to use figurative language. Human language cannot, with precision, express God.

Because the text is figurative, we can say that one of the three was God. I do not buy this argument that you make about the purpose of angels. The other two are angels, so why did they not leave with the one? Besides, the text calls the figure LORD. As in God. Thus the texts says God met with Abraham, shared a meal with the man. The text being mythology.

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The greater one understands God's greatness, the more one is in Awe of him. So Mosheh's 'Fear' of God just proves that he is on a higher level and the fact that he looks away shows his greater level of humility.

I do not object to Moses' status as a great spiritual leader. All I'm saying is that, at least on occasion, his encounters with God are terrifying. This is not so strange, many encounters with God are terrifying, others are just the opposite.

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So the connection to Lucifer was made afterwards and it was based on a Mistranslation.

No. Lucifer was the Latin name given to the character first spoken of in 2 Enoch.

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Many years ago I came to the realization that fear and faith cannot co-exist harmoniously together. One or the other has to go. The fearful mind is "satan's" playground. To instill in the mind of man a "fear of God" is one of the grandest "tricks" ever played on mankind and is, if you want to know the truth, evil personified.

I disagree. People often fear the truth, and when confronted with uncomfortable truths, people are often fearful. Also, intense experiences, even good experiences, can carry a bit of fear with them simply because they are so intense.

Fear of God is a real phenomenon, and like so many other real phenomenon, it can be abused by greedy people. Such is the case with the fear of God.

1 Reply

@TickTockMan,

God Is One

=
MJA

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@William,

William wrote:

Bin,
The more I listen to you and what you have been trained to believe, the more I see "satan" laughing. (To use religious terms), as you interpret "awe" as fear rather than "wonder" and "amazement". How come, I wonder? Many years ago I came to the realization that fear and faith cannot co-exist harmoniously together. One or the other has to go. The fearful mind is "satan's" playground. To instill in the mind of man a "fear of God" is one of the grandest "tricks" ever played on mankind and is, if you want to know the truth, evil personified.

Yes, I believe with all my heart, the mind is "God's domain" if it is not "hindered" by fear. Fear in any context prevents God's presence. Without His presence, the mind is "open territory", so to speak and can conjure up horror's that can drive one insane, especially if those fears are in any way of God Himself. Considering the shape of the world, (see list), it makes me wonder "who" inspired the term "fear of God" in the Bible as it also goes on to speak of His "jealousy, wrath and vengefulness"? Hmmm? (Satan, laughing in the background).

Religiously speaking, of course.

William

You sound like the self help guy on Donnie Darko (Patrick Swayze)

Awe is wonder. But if you truely understood and saw God's greatness and perfection, you would begin to tremble from his greatness. You would be ashamed to look at him (Like Mosheh was in the above quote).

Here is an excerpt from my book on the topic

2.6.11 Yirat Shamayim

"V'Oto Tyraou [Fear/Awe Him]"

[RIGHT](Devarim [Deuteronomy] 13:5) [/RIGHT]

"Serve HaShem with Yirah (Awe)"

[CENTER](Tehilim [Psalms] 2:11) [/CENTER]

"Let Yirat Shamayim (Awe of Heaven) be upon you"

[RIGHT](Avoth 1:3) [/RIGHT]

"HaKadosh Baruch Hu (The Holy, Blessed One), has nothing in His treasury except for the treasure of Yirat Shamayim (Awe of Heaven)"

[RIGHT](Brachot 33b)[/RIGHT]

We can never truly comprehend the greatness of HaShem. But we can comprehend how insignificant we are in comparison to Him.

"I [Avraham] am dust and ashes" (B'Resheet [Genesis] 18:27)
"I [David HaMelech] am a worm not a man" (Tehilim 22:7)
"What are we [Mosheh Rabeinu and Aharon HaKohen]?" (Shmot [Exodus] 16:7)

"'Fear God and keep his commandments, for that is man's whole duty."

[RIGHT](King Solomon - The conclusion of the entire book of Koheleth [Ecclesiastes]) [/RIGHT]

By understanding our insignificance in comparison to Him we are filled with what is known as Yirat Shamayim (Awe of Heaven). We realize that our own desires are the desires of dust, and worms and nothingness and that His desires are ultimate goodness, truth and Shalom. Although we are so insignificant in comparison to Him, His goodness and kindness is to us. And the entire earth is sustained by His Will alone. The more we understand and Praise His greatness the more Yirat Shamayim [Awe of Heaven] we will have. And the result of this 'Awe' is a cancellation of our selves and our own desires and aspirations because we are embarrassed to have any concept of self before the Greatness of the Almighty. And we become as servants to the truth and unity of existence.

As it is written:
"The will [Desire] of those who fear Him (Israel in this case) He makes"

[RIGHT](David HaMelech - Tehilim [Psalms] 145:19)[/RIGHT]

And when we are clothed in His desire, we are no longer ourselves but an extension of Him in the world.

"'How is the garment of a Torah Scholar? His body is not seen beneath it.'

[RIGHT](Bava Batra 57b)[/RIGHT]

'The garment refers to Yirat Shamayim, which is called a garment: 'It clothes him in Humility and Yirah (Awe).' (Avoth 6:1) The body harbours the physical and material desires. The awe, which is the garment, must overpower these bodily forces until they no longer appear and cannot be found [like the Torah Scholar].'"

[RIGHT](Ben Ish Hai - Ben Yehoyada)[/RIGHT]

All wisdom of the universe and wisdom of HaShem leads us to this Awe of His greatness; the understanding of the complexity of creation and how it all beautifully comes together in a symphony of oneness; the understanding that the greatest perfection we can imagine is far from being a sample of His perfection.

"The beginning of wisdom is the 'Awe' of HaShem [meaning, when you start learning, your objective should be to attain the fear of HaShem]; all who do God's commandments gain sound understanding" (Psalms 111:10).

"Whenever a person's fear of sin comes before his wisdom, his wisdom will endure; but when a person's wisdom comes before his fear of sin, his wisdom will not endure."

[RIGHT](Rabbi Hhanina ben Dosa - Pirkei Avoth 3:11)[/RIGHT]

"Abbaye was wont to say the following: A person should always be cunning in devising new strategies to improve his fear of heaven."

[RIGHT](Brachot 17a)[/RIGHT]

When we attain Yirat Shamayim we will be far from iniquity and sin.

"Their natural traits do not have any effect at all with regard to worldly desires. All these traits are constantly nullified because of their 'Awe' of HaShem"

[RIGHT](Rabbi Israel Ben Eliezer - Keter Shem Tov 391)[/RIGHT]

This was also [The Great] Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai's final blessing to his students while on his deathbed.
"They [His students] said to Him [Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai]: Rabbi, please bless us. He said to them: May it be God's will that your fear of God should be as great as your fear of flesh and blood. His students said to him: Is that all? He said to them: I wish you would be able to attain that! And I'll prove it to you. If a person commits a sin he says: I hope that no one sees me."

[RIGHT](Brachot 28b)[/RIGHT]

The Alshich HaKadosh (Mishlei 2:5) explains that this refers to one's embarrassment of sin.
One is more embarrassed when they sin in front of other people than when one sins and others do not witness him. Those that attain the level of this blessing will never feel that they are alone, or that privacy exists in any place including in one's heart. This is why Rabbi YoHhanan ben Brok'a said:
"Whenever one desecrates the Heavenly Name in secret, punishment will be meted out to him in public; unwittingly or intentionally, it is all the same with regard to the desecration of The Name."

[RIGHT](Pirkei Avoth 4:5)[/RIGHT]

The attribute of feeling shame before the Creator is directly related to increasing one's 'Awe' of Him. Love of HaShem is most effective for promoting positive commandments but less effective in keeping negative ones. It is the 'Awe' of his glory that brings one to fear the iniquity of sin. One needs to attain both a positive pull for Mitzvoth (Elevating actions) and a negative push from sin.

"A person who has a sense of shame will not easily sin"

[RIGHT](Nedarim 20a) [/RIGHT]

Another understanding to the Blessing of Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai is that people want to be a positive influence on the world.

"R. Elazar said: Someone who influences others to give Tzedakah (Charity) is greater than the person who gives Tzedakah himself. For it says, "The product of Tzedakah [i.e., causing others to give Tzedakah] shall be Shalom; and the effect of giving Tzedakah, quiet and security forever" (Isaiah 32: 17), [Shalom is a greater blessing than quiet and security]."

[RIGHT](Bava Batra 9a)[/RIGHT]

Therefore when one is in solitude the positive desire of wanting to influence others for Good is no longer present and one may forget the true reason why they perform Mitzvoth. This is the warning that Shlomo HaMelech, of blessed memory, wrote:
"In all your ways [not just in front of other people] know Him, and He will make your paths straight."

[RIGHT](Mishlei 3:7)[/RIGHT]

Although if one's evil inclination is too strong, it is best that the sin is done in private (Moed Katan 17a).

"R. Hhanina said: Everything is decreed in heaven except the 'Awe' of heaven [i.e., Heaven decrees whether you will be tall or short, rich, smart, fair or dark-complexioned, but you have the freedom to choose between good and evil (Rashi)]. As it says, "And now Israel, what does God want of you? Only that you 'fear' God your Lord" (Devarim [Deuteronomy] 10:12). [The Gemara asks:] Is the 'Awe' of God such a small thing? [The verse makes it sound as though the 'Awe' of God is only a minor matter.] Didn't R. Hhanina say in the name of R. Shimon b. Yocha'i: The Holy One, blessed be He, has in His treasury nothing except a stockpile of the 'Awe' of Heaven, as it says, "The 'Awe' of God is His treasure" (Isaiah 33:6)."

[RIGHT](Brachot 33b)[/RIGHT]

"Let all your deeds be for the sake of Heaven"

[RIGHT](Rabbi Yosei - Pirkei Avoth 2:15) [/RIGHT]

"Reflect upon three things and you will never come to sin: Know from where you came, to where you are going and before whom you are destined to give an accounting. From where did you come? From a putrid drop; And to where are you going? To a place of dust and maggots; And before whom will you give an accounting? Before the King of kings, HaKadosh Baruch Hu (The Holy Blessed One)."

[RIGHT](A'kavya ben Mahalalel - Pirkei Avoth 3:1)[/RIGHT]

When one is lacking in this 'Awe' he or she will have their own 'will' and not follow His Will. This will cause even more of a lack of 'Awe' as is written:
"Your iniquities have separated between you and your God" (Isaiah 59:2)

And thus even more deviation between Desire in a perpetual effect, as is written:
"Sin leads to Sin"
(Ben A'zai - Pirkei Avoth 4:2)

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

I do not buy this argument that you make about the purpose of angels. The other two are angels, so why did they not leave with the one?

Because they had not yet fulfilled their purpose, you see that later on they go to Sodom and continue to act in the world.

Didymos Thomas wrote:

No. Lucifer was the Latin name given to the character first spoken of in 2 Enoch.

What was his Hebrew name?

Didymos Thomas wrote:

I disagree. People often fear the truth, and when confronted with uncomfortable truths, people are often fearful. Also, intense experiences, even good experiences, can carry a bit of fear with them simply because they are so intense.

Fear of God is a real phenomenon, and like so many other real phenomenon, it can be abused by greedy people. Such is the case with the fear of God.

:a-ok:

0 Replies

@Sarah phil,

It is so lovely to read this stuff. I just wish my memory could hold enough to actually debate some literalist folks I know. Finally I am peaceful!

1 Reply

@Sarah phil,

Bin's proclamation:

"'Fear God and keep his commandments, for that is man's whole duty."

Sorry, Bin. Not by a long shot. Perhap's those flames on the "burning bush" had nothing to do with God at all.:devilish: Hmmm? If it's all the same to you, I won't be a slave to any man or God. Man was not created to live in fear. Nope! Not in the slightest.

William

1 Reply

@Sarah phil,

Quote:

Because they had not yet fulfilled their purpose, you see that later on they go to Sodom and continue to act in the world.

You still have to explain then why the scripture refers to one of the three as God.

Quote:

What was his Hebrew name?

Going back to the text, it is Satanail, or Satan. And that's the whole point - in this text, for the first time, the story line of a fallen angel is given to Satan. And Lucifer is Satan as a fallen angel, who "conceived... to place his throne higher than the clouds above the earth, that he might become equal [to God]". 2 Enoch is where we first find Satan with this story line, the story line now recognized as Lucifer's story line.

2 Enoch is the origin of this particular myth. Later, Latin speakers/scribes would use the name Lucifer. The story was already there, just in a different language.

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It is so lovely to read this stuff. I just wish my memory could hold enough to actually debate some literalist folks I know. Finally I am peaceful!

No need to debate what is in your heart. Show them the way by example; words are unnecessary.

1 Reply

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik;29848 wrote:

"Let all your deeds be for the sake of Heaven"

Early in this post you describe God's will, which is, according to my understanding, manifest within us.

I have found love, and this love has opened the path of understanding to me to the degree that I am overwhelmed by its beauty and unable to express its purity and its force. I accept this will, but I feel great pain also in my inability to express it.

If I turn against this will to escape the suffering it causes me, I am separating myself from God's will, and have sinned against God.

By accepting the will of God are we necessarily guided to a means of its expression?

2 Replies

@Didymos Thomas,

Quote from Machon Mamre
(I didn't have the patience to translate it all myself)
Genesis 18 / Hebrew Bible in English / Mechon-Mamre

Quote:

Genesis Chapter 18

1 And the LORD appeared unto him by the terebinths of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Abraham was communing with God

Quote:

2 and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed down to the earth,

Abraham ended his communion with God in order to welcome Guests.
From this we learn the importance of Welcoming Guests (Hachnasat Orchim) Even the Hebrew word for Guest stems from the word for light (Or). The decendants of Ishmael (Abraham's Progeny) today very much keep this tradition.

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3 and said: 'My lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant. 4 Let now a little water be fetched, and wash your feet, and recline yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and stay ye your heart; after that ye shall pass on; forasmuch as ye are come to your servant.' And they said: 'So do, as thou hast said.'

We see the honour that Abraham gave to his guests and He did not yet know that they were Angels. Notice where Abraham says "Wash Your Feet": This is a clear indication that he did not know that they were angels. It was the custom for the Arabs of the time to worship the sand between their toes, and Abraham did not want them to come into the house with Idol worshiping. Also Abraham says "A morsel of Bread" so that they do not feel badly about accepting it, but when he comes out see all of the food he brings for them. And he says "After you can pass on" because he does not want to keep them from their journey or make them feel that they must stay.

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6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said: 'Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes.' 7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto the servant; and he hastened to dress it. 8 And he took curd, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

The Cakes in hebrew are (Matzot) which is a bread that is uniquely eaten at Passover. This is an allusion that they came at the time of Passover. You also see that he brought them a calf which was considered the best of meat. There is a question brought here about Abraham serving Milk and Meat at the same time, when the Torah forbids it. This shows that the Angels stayed a long time in the shade of the Tree.

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9 And they said unto him: 'Where is Sarah thy wife?' And he said: 'Behold, in the tent.' 10 And He said: 'I will certainly return unto thee when the season cometh round; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son.' And Sarah heard in the tent door, which was behind him.-- 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, and well stricken in age; it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.-- 12 And Sarah laughed within herself, saying: 'After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my husband being old also?'

Pay attention to Sarah's laugh. It was a laugh of doubt and she said that there were 2 reasons why they could no longer have a son. She thought that she was too old, and Abraham was too old.

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13 And the LORD said unto Abraham: 'Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying: Shall I of a surety bear a child, who am old?

Abraham again communes with God while the Angels are resting under the tree. At this point Abraham is revealed that the Men are actually Angels because one of them ceases to exist after speaking the message.(There are 4 types of angel, the word 'Malach' means a messange, So this type of angel is a message)
We see that when God recounts the Laugh to Abraham He does not mention that she called 'Abraham' old.
This is to teach that one should not start a quarrel between husband and wife. God is willing to Lie for Peace.

Quote:

14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD. At the set time I will return unto thee, when the season cometh round, and Sarah shall have a son.' 15 Then Sarah denied, saying: 'I laughed not'; for she was afraid. And He said: 'Nay; but thou didst laugh.' 16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked out toward Sodom; and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17 And the LORD said: 'Shall I hide from Abraham that which I am doing; 18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which He hath spoken of him.' 20 And the LORD said: 'Verily, the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and, verily, their sin is exceeding grievous. 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto Me; and if not, I will know.'

God Announces that Sodom and Amora will be destroyed. From this we also learn that God does not hide future events from the righteous. Prophecy is the ability to see the Divine System of Will. Abraham's Prophecy was not taken away from him.

22 And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23 And Abraham drew near, and said: 'Wilt Thou indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt Thou indeed sweep away and not forgive the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from Thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from Thee; shall not the Judge of all the earth do justly?' 26 And the LORD said: 'If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will forgive all the place for their sake.' 27 And Abraham answered and said: 'Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, who am but dust and ashes. 28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous; wilt Thou destroy all the city for lack of five?' And He said: 'I will not destroy it, if I find there forty and five.' 29 And he spoke unto Him yet again, and said: 'Peradventure there shall be forty found there.' And He said: 'I will not do it for the forty's sake.' 30 And he said: 'Oh, let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak. Peradventure there shall thirty be found there.' And He said: 'I will not do it, if I find thirty there.' 31 And he said: 'Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD. Peradventure there shall be twenty found there.' And He said: 'I will not destroy it for the twenty's sake.' 32 And he said: 'Oh, let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once. Peradventure ten shall be found there.' And He said: 'I will not destroy it for the ten's sake.' 33 And the LORD went His way, as soon as He had left off speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned unto his place.[/quote]

Here we see Abraham Begging for God to spare lives of 'Wicked' Men. There is a significance to every number of Righteous, but the general idea is that the 'Wicked' can turn away from evil if there are at least 10 Righteous amoung them to guide them. [Even though everyone repented (non-Jewish Nation) in the book of Jonah (Sefer Yonah) because of one prophet]
But Abraham has no problem with the destruction of a culture of Evil.

Quote:

Genesis Chapter 19

1 And the two angels came to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom; and Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them; and he fell down on his face to the earth;

We see that two angels remain because one ceased to exist, and Lot recognized them as Angles and Bowed to them. Also Lot sat at the Gate because that is where the Torah scholars learned Torah. It is a tradition that continued until the destruction of the Second temple.

Quote:

2 and he said: 'Behold now, my lords, turn aside, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your way.' And they said: 'Nay; but we will abide in the broad place all night.'

We see the difference between Abraham's invitation when he thought they were Men and Lot's lacking invitation when he knew they were angels. So the Angels refused. (Abrham promised a little but offered a lot, Lot promised a lot but offered a little)

Quote:

3 And he urged them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread (Matzot), and they did eat. 4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both young and old, all the people from every quarter. 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him: 'Where are the men that came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.'

This demonstrates the Wickedness of the Capital City of Mesapotamia. They had a law that guests would be killed allong with those that receive them. The exact opposite of Abraham's philosophy.

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@Doorsopen,

Doorsopen wrote:

Early in this post you describe God's will, which is, according to my understanding, manifest within us.

I have found love, and this love has opened the path of understanding to me to the degree that I am overwhelmed by its beauty and unable to express its purity and its force. I accept this will, but I feel great pain also in my inability to express it.

If I turn against this will to escape the suffering it causes me, I am separating myself from God's will, and have sinned against God.

By accepting the will of God are we necessarily guided to a means of its expression?

You are thinking about God's Will for you, but God's will in general is for the entire world or specific nations or specific circumstances. At it all opperates for the common goal of perfection.
Someone who has attained prophecy is attuned to God's will and can see future events because they are a part of the system of Will. This is what was meant by the above quote when God said "Shall we hide this?". Because Abraham was attuned to God's will.

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@Doorsopen,

Doorsopen wrote:

I have found love, and this love has opened the path of understanding to me to the degree that I am overwhelmed by its beauty and unable to express its purity and its force. I accept this will, but I feel great pain also in my inability to express it.

I know it is hard to express, what you have admitted you can't express. If it is indeed love and beauty, it would seem there would be no problem. Of course it is hard to offer any more help in that there is nothing in your statement that illustrates what it is you deem beautiful and pure. I can see the frustration in that what you are feeling would most definitely want to be shared. Pain should IMO not be associated with "love, beauty and purity. Could you give a little more information? :perplexed:

William

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@William,

William wrote:

Bin's proclamation:

"'Fear God and keep his commandments, for that is man's whole duty."

Sorry, Bin. Not by a long shot. Perhap's those flames on the "burning bush" had nothing to do with God at all.:devilish: Hmmm? If it's all the same to you, I won't be a slave to any man or God. Man was not created to live in fear. Nope! Not in the slightest.

William

Again, Fear is Awe. The lower level of fear is fear of punishment. This is reserved for Children and idiots. And this is what was abused and what is causing all of your frustration.

The higher fear, is Awe of is sublime greatness and feeling insignificant next to it.
There is also Love which is also an important trait. This is going above and beyond your duty in order to glorify Him.

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@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

Again, Fear is Awe. The lower level of fear is fear of punishment. This is reserved for Children and idiots. And this is what was abused and what is causing all of your frustration.

The higher fear, is Awe of is sublime greatness and feeling insignificant next to it.
There is also Love which is also an important trait. This is going above and beyond your duty in order to glorify Him.

Damn, Damn, Damn! God, give me strength. Whew.:brickwall:

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@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

The reason why at first it states that there were 3 men, and later it states that there are 2, is not because one of them is God, it is because the only purpose of an Angel is his task. After he has completed his task then he no longer exists.

Sorry to back up so far / derail the conversation. If this needs a separate thread, we can do that.

But, this is a cool concept. For various reasons it has a strong appeal for me. What led you to think of angels this way?

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@Resha Caner,

Resha Caner wrote:

Binyamin,

Sorry to back up so far / derail the conversation. If this needs a separate thread, we can do that.

But, this is a cool concept. For various reasons it has a strong appeal for me. What led you to think of angels this way?

This is the traditional understanding.
There are many words for Angel in Hebrew depending on who you ask.

Malach (Malachim Pl.) -- Message
Seraph (Seraphim) -- Burning
Cheruv (Cheruvim) -- Sword
Ophan (Ophanim) -- Wheel
Sar (Sarim) -- Princes
Irin (Irinim) -- Watchers
Arel (Arelim) -- God's Lion
Chayot HaKodesh -- Holy Creatures

There are 4 main types
Malach
Seraph
Ophan
Cheruv

Ophanim (wheels) according to the RaMBaM are the heavenly planets that govern the influence on Human behaviour and the trends of society. The study of these Angels and their influences are what is known as Astrology.

Malach is Messenger. And their purpose is to deliver a Message, or from God himself, or from another domain within the system of God's Will. An example of a Malach would be the Malach HaMavet which is the Messenger of Death. It is what brings a message to the soul that it is time to leave.

Seraphim and Cheruvim are most famous as the spinning swords that guard the entrance to the Garden of Eden.

They are higher Angels that rarely interact directly with Man.

Angels are some type of set program with a set of tasks to carry out. Once they complete their task, it is as if they no longer exist, because they have nothing left to do and thus no longer interact with anything.

This I have previously described as Existance. Any system that interacts with another system has existance relative to one another.
Thus an angel that no longer acts because it has completed its task no longer exists.

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@Binyamin Tsadik,

Very cool. You might have to humor me and occasionally Westernize some of the names you're using. By Rambam I assume you mean Moses Maimonides.

I'm not very familiar with him - basically at a "wiki" level, but I wouldn't have interpreted some of what he says to imply that angels cease to exist when their purpose is complete. I do like his view of angels, though.

So is there an explicit example of what you say, or is it all inference? For example, I could quote Luke 20:36 as the reason a Christian would claim angels are eternal (not that you would accept it). Even that reference, though, is not explicit.

My mind ran wild with applying this idea to Satan. Let's say God gives an angel a mission, and there is more than one way to properly execute the mission. Does the angel have a choice? If he does, then it could easily follow that he could make a bad choice. In Satan's case, he could refuse to complete the mission, thereby self-sustaining his own existence indefinitely. In other words, Satan could choose to make himself eternal. Being now eternal, it would be easy for Satan to think that in an infinity of time he could achieve omnipotence. Hence, he would be like God. And so the fall of the angels.

But, the downside of Rambam's position is that the angels become very mechanical - without the ability to make choices. So, would you say angels do or do not have choices?

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@Resha Caner,

Resha Caner;30067 wrote:

In Satan's case, he could refuse to complete the mission, thereby self-sustaining his own existence indefinitely. In other words, Satan could choose to make himself eternal. Being now eternal, it would be easy for Satan to think that in an infinity of time he could achieve omnipotence. Hence, he would be like God. And so the fall of the angels.

But, the downside of Rambam's position is that the angels become very mechanical - without the ability to make choices. So, would you say angels do or do not have choices?

Satan can exist only as long as Life exists, his mission is seperation from the Divine, and as long as we live in the illusion that we are separate from God his mission continues. Should we achieve a state of unity with God's will and see that we are are part of God's will, Satan will no longer have a mission and will cease to exist... He has no choice, we do.

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