what is god

@Khethil,

Khethil wrote:

I like this, someone write this down. It's certainly more plausible (in an empirical sense, to our realm) than other explanations.

One question; are we talking farm animal matter (e.g., meats, beef by-products) or the actual animal itself?

Thanks

The actual farm animal itself. I was looking for the processing plant here in Milwaukee, but apparently Miller keeps it well hidden (Old Milwaukee, Milwaukee's Best, and others brewed under license by Miller).

1 Reply

@Theaetetus,

Quote:

But isn't that basically the same thing?
I mean, if I was thrown out of the philosophy forum I could change my name and come back under a different IP, but I'd still be the same guy.

The Philosophy Forum is not a mythological location, and you are not a mythological figure. The story of Lucifer is allegory. Lucifer is not called Lucifer post-fall because Satan is no longer the most beautiful angel. Basically, the story suggests that living rightly for a while is not sufficient, that we should try to always live rightly.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;28564 wrote:

The Philosophy Forum is not a mythological location, and you are not a mythological figure.

Dang. Way to pop my bubble. My minotaur is going to be so disappointed.

Didymos Thomas;28564 wrote:

Basically, the story suggests that living rightly for a while is not sufficient, that we should try to always live rightly.

No argument there. Most mythological stories make the same suggestion. I find it unfortunate that many of them have been turned into literal belief systems all claiming to be the correct version.

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@Sarah phil,

Often, a tad of biblical reading can give "the answer" to so many. Exhilerating to read so much "other" stuff.

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@Sarah phil,

Quote:

No argument there. Most mythological stories make the same suggestion. I find it unfortunate that many of them have been turned into literal belief systems all claiming to be the correct version.

Me, too. To read mythology and allegory literally is to miss the point.

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@Sarah phil,

You mean that I wasn't supposed to read Animal Farm literally?

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@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus;28686 wrote:

You mean that I wasn't supposed to read Animal Farm literally?

Only the Orwell version should be read literally.

The talking version I have should not be taken literally . . . you know, the version where you push the picture of a cow and a voice says, "The COW says, Mmmmoooooo."

I really like it because it has big thick durable pages that I can chew on before nappy time.

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@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus wrote:

You mean that I wasn't supposed to read Animal Farm literally?

What's really cool about this, is you could take the book and with a pinch of charisma, convince billions of people to refer to it as allegory and base an entire religion on it; gleaning broad, relativistic interpretations on the different plots it'd work great. Then, if anything starts to sound too silly (or some discovery contradicts what you've taught), just say "Oh, that wasn't meant literally silly!"

... gotta love books.

1 Reply

@Khethil,

Good book, but it's horrible mythology.

Yeah, I love books, too. But this idea that a bit of charisma can turn any book into the basis of a faith tradition is a bit far fetched, at least if you expect the faith tradition to be worth a damn. I mean, look at Scientology: charismatic leader, a book, but the resulting religion has been dismembered by theologians and practitioners of various religion because Scientology fails as a faith tradition (instead, it's a racist ideology). Meanwhile, we find practitioners of religion and theologians who embrace traditions other than their own. Why? Because the scripture is more than just a any old book given broad interpretation.

The New Testament, for example, did not thrive because of the charisma of Jesus or even of his followers. The book flourished because of it's literary quality. The same can be said of other mythological texts like Homer or Chuang Tzu.

Oh, by the by, Animal Farm is allegory; it just isn't primarily a religious allegory, it's political.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;28700 wrote:

Good book, but it's horrible mythology.

Are you referring to Animal Farm or the Bible?

Didymos Thomas;28700 wrote:

Oh, by the by, Animal Farm is allegory; it just isn't primarily a religious allegory, it's political.

An indictment of Stalinism, if you want to get specific.

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@Sarah phil,

I daresay we should all be transported to Elba to discuss further.

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@Sarah phil,

I'll go to Elba. You arrange teleportation and I'm there . . . I'll bring my thong for the beach.

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@TickTockMan,

Quote:

Are you referring to Animal Farm or the Bible?

Animal Farm; great political allegory, as you said, an indictment of Russian communism, but fails utterly as a comprehensive mythology like Homer's work or the Bible.

The Bible is extremely interesting mythology. It's actually a couple of different mythologies fused together in parts of the Old Testament.

The beach? I love the beach. I'll bring the beer.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Oh, by the by, Animal Farm is allegory; it just isn't primarily a religious allegory, it's political.

It was only a joke. Reading Animal Farm literally means you buy into the fact animals could talk and take over the farm so to speak. I was taking a stab at myself by admitting that I took it literally. I honestly though the farm was overrun by the animals.

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@Theaetetus,

Allegory, or any sort of figurative language, takes practice to understand. This is a serious problem; this is part of the reason why so many honestly faithful people misread their scripture to disastrous results, this is part of the reason why people are having an increasingly difficult time understanding spiritual literature.

I'm speaking about myself as much as anyone else. I was once a very militant atheist, and the problem was that I simply did not understand figurative language very well. Now, that's not to say that atheists just don't understand figurative language, which is obviously not true. But for me, figurative language took time. I still have a long way to go.

To the point, though, Animal Farm is allegory. I know the whole thing was a joke, but none the less, I think most people recall religious literature when allegory is mentioned. I certainly do this, thinking of Dante and The Monkey King. But political allegory, as a genre, has a great deal of potential. Looking at modern literature, I think the genre has really exploded with Animal Farm and other texts like The Lord of the Rings.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;28720 wrote:

Animal Farm; great political allegory, as you said, an indictment of Russian communism, but fails utterly as a comprehensive mythology like Homer's work or the Bible.

I wouldn't say Animal Farm fails as a mythology. How can something fail at something it never aspired to be?

Didymos Thomas;28720 wrote:

The Bible is extremely interesting mythology. It's actually a couple of different mythologies fused together in parts of the Old Testament.

I'm not real up on my Old Testament studies. Which mythologies are you seeing fused into it?

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Lucifer is not the devil, is not Satan. Lucifer was the most beautiful of the Angels who rebelled against God. After the defeat of Lucifer's rebellion, Lucifer was cast out of Heaven. In the fall Lucifer transforms into Satan because he falls away from God.

As for drinking, I like beer and wine just fine. Original Coors is great American beer. But mostly I stick with a glass of rum.

For something to Rebel against God, it would imply that it has Free-Will. It would imply that God gave it the ability to Rebel.
Angels do not have free will. They cannot Rebel against God and there is no Lucifer in Jewish Tradition. It is an invention of the Romans who combined paganism into Catholocism.

And according to Catholic Mythology, Satan was Lucifer's servant.

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@Sarah phil,

Are there Jewish angels? Such a wierd question I have asked.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Allegory, or any sort of figurative language, takes practice to understand. This is a serious problem; this is part of the reason why so many honestly faithful people misread their scripture to disastrous results...

This suggests there is a 'correct' way to interpret such figurative language. Just out of curiosity, when we're talking about the quadrillions of different ways each individual will see any tale of <this> or <that>, just what is the correct way? This isn't a 'bait' DT, I'm honestly intrigued by what is correct, in the hugely-subjective area of personal interpretation.

Didymos Thomas wrote:

I'm speaking about myself as much as anyone else. I was once a very militant atheist, and the problem was that I simply did not understand figurative language very well.

Side note here: Figurative language is everywhere (I'm plowing through some Chaucer at the moment, btw) and has much worth. Through emphasis on verbal-imagery, emphasis is placed, overtones hang and impact is achieved. Because of this, allegory and imagry tend to have a higher impact on people seeking inspiration. It's quite possible to understand this dynamic, be wary of its emotional-influence, yet appreciate it simultaneously.

Thanks

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@Sarah phil,

Sarah wrote:

Are there Jewish angels? Such a wierd question I have asked.

I don't know what a Jewish Angel is, but it's funny to picture it.

There are 4 different words for Angel in Hebrew and each type is responsible for a different task.
The general word is Malach which means messenger. An Angel is really just a transfer of information in the system of God's will.

Also there are many ideas about every Nation having an Angel responsible for its well being. So I guess you can say that there would be a Jewish Angel responsible over the Jewish Nation, but the same source says "Every Nation But Israel has an Angel that guides it"

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