Sarah phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 08:54 am
@Sarah phil,
Thank you, I learned from that. I am following Aish and really am learning.
How are things in Jerusalem this day?
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 11:43 am
@Binyamin Tsadik,
Quote:
I'm not real up on my Old Testament studies. Which mythologies are you seeing fused into it?


First, the God of Abraham and the God of Moses were originally two different deities. True monotheism was inspired by the Egyptian monotheism, and many Babylonian elements also exist.

Quote:
For something to Rebel against God, it would imply that it has Free-Will. It would imply that God gave it the ability to Rebel.
Angels do not have free will. They cannot Rebel against God and there is no Lucifer in Jewish Tradition. It is an invention of the Romans who combined paganism into Catholocism.


Actually, equating Satan with Lucifer predates Christianity. The equivocation was more successful in Christianity and seems to have died out in Judaism, but the equivocation does originate in Judaism about a century before Christ.

Quote:
This suggests there is a 'correct' way to interpret such figurative language. Just out of curiosity, when we're talking about the quadrillions of different ways each individual will see any tale of <this> or <that>, just what is the correct way? This isn't a 'bait' DT, I'm honestly intrigued by what is correct, in the hugely-subjective area of personal interpretation.


I did not use the word "correct", so I'm not sure why you put the term in quotations. Of course people will read things differently; that's a good thing. None the less, reading takes practice, and reading figurative language takes practices. This is not some wild notion, it's pretty obvious.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 12:05 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;28801 wrote:
True monotheism was inspired by the Egyptian monotheism,


Amen to that . . .
0 Replies
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 03:24 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
First, the God of Abraham and the God of Moses were originally two different deities. True monotheism was inspired by the Egyptian monotheism, and many Babylonian elements also exist.


The aspect of God that was revealed to Avraham was known as K'el Shaddai. Moses was the first to be revealed the name Havayah. It's the same God, just a different aspect. Like newtonian physics speaks about the same physics as Einstein, it's just that Einstein has a deeper understanding.
And Monotheism existed since the time of Adam. Shem was still alive at the time of Abraham aswell.



Didymos Thomas wrote:
Actually, equating Satan with Lucifer predates Christianity. The equivocation was more successful in Christianity and seems to have died out in Judaism, but the equivocation does originate in Judaism about a century before Christ.


Sorry bro, there is no such angel as Lucifer in Jewish text. The dead sea sect (the original 'Jewish' christians) did have many mythological stories about angels that were uncovered but do not identify an angel known as Lucifer. Jewish text does, however, identify a spiritual force known as the 'Satan' which is identified as the 'prosecutor'.

Christian Mythology does not equate Lucifer and Satan. According to Christian mythology, Satan pursuaded Lucifer to go Against God. Satan was Lucifer's servant. And yes, this idea predates Christianity in Paganism.
0 Replies
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 03:36 pm
@Sarah phil,
Sarah wrote:
Thank you, I learned from that. I am following Aish and really am learning.
How are things in Jerusalem this day?


Jerusalem is good, city elections are coming up soon.

try these sites

www.simpletoremember.com
www.torahforme.com
www.machonmeir.co.il
0 Replies
 
Sarah phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 05:53 pm
@Sarah phil,
Thank you Binyamin. Aish has shown me much too!
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 06:24 pm
@Sarah phil,
Quote:
The aspect of God that was revealed to Avraham was known as K'el Shaddai. Moses was the first to be revealed the name Havayah. It's the same God, just a different aspect. Like newtonian physics speaks about the same physics as Einstein, it's just that Einstein has a deeper understanding.
And Monotheism existed since the time of Adam. Shem was still alive at the time of Abraham aswell.


I wasn't talking about the mythological narrative, I was talking about the history of the matter. The people of Moses brought their war God up from Egypt and came to live with the people of Abraham who, at the time, were already in Israel.

Quote:
Sorry bro, there is no such angel as Lucifer in Jewish text. The dead sea sect (the original 'Jewish' christians) did have many mythological stories about angels that were uncovered but do not identify an angel known as Lucifer. Jewish text does, however, identify a spiritual force known as the 'Satan' which is identified as the 'prosecutor'.


No need to be sorry for anything.

According to the Jewish encyclopedia, the first times Satan and Lucifer are spoken of as the same individual occurs in the Life of Adam and Eve and in the Book of Enoch.

These texts are apocrypha, however, the texts originated in the Jewish tradition. Thus, the first time Satan and Lucifer are discussed as the same individual, the equivocation is made by Jews. This belief, obviously, did not catch on very well in Jewish communities and only became popular when Christian writers picked up the idea.

You can look this stuff up on Wikipedia; it's not hidden information. And who knows, maybe the Wiki sources are wrong. I'm certainly not an expert.

Quote:
Christian Mythology does not equate Lucifer and Satan. According to Christian mythology, Satan pursuaded Lucifer to go Against God. Satan was Lucifer's servant. And yes, this idea predates Christianity in Paganism.


I'm not sure which Christian mythology you are referring to, but I'm unfamiliar with this notion. There are various mythological traditions within Christianity and they do not always agree on everything.
MITech
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2008 09:05 am
@Sarah phil,
What is god? Well how should we know. The only evidence that makes us believe that there is a god is the bible. Why should we make judgements on the idea that there even is a god when we can't even encounter him on a daily basis.

Just saying. j
0 Replies
 
Sarah phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2008 11:36 am
@Sarah phil,
At this point, I couldn't agree more. It is (bible) a book to read. Considering that it is comprised of "memories", mine would be a good book to read too!
0 Replies
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2008 05:08 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
I wasn't talking about the mythological narrative, I was talking about the history of the matter. The people of Moses brought their war God up from Egypt and came to live with the people of Abraham who, at the time, were already in Israel.


Any proof for this? There were many people of Abraham. There are the Children of Ishmael and the decendants of Abraham's children that were born from his 3rd wife after the death of Sarah. The desendants of Essav are also decendants of Abraham. Also, Abraham's people could refer to Lavan's children which formed the nations of Ammon and Moav.

But the Nation of Israel that left Egypt were the Children of Yaacov (Jacob). I've never head that disputed before.

Didymos Thomas wrote:
According to the Jewish encyclopedia, the first times Satan and Lucifer are spoken of as the same individual occurs in the Life of Adam and Eve and in the Book of Enoch.


I admit that the snake in the Garden of Eden is sometimes refered to as Satan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#Judaism

But the book of Enoch is a book that was part of the Dead Sea Sect before Yoshka Pendri (the man on the stick). This was not Jewdaism but an offshoot which wrote extreme things.
But Jews never identified anyone known as Lucifer including the dead sea sect. The Book of Enoch has no mention of Lucifer... look at this link.

WikiAnswers - What is the role played by Satan in the Bible

Christians began mixing up the two because of the book "Paradise Lost" and "Dante's Inferno"

Didymos Thomas wrote:
I'm not sure which Christian mythology you are referring to, but I'm unfamiliar with this notion. There are various mythological traditions within Christianity and they do not always agree on everything.


According to Christian Mythology, Lucifer was the Angel that ruled over Satan. Satan tricked him into going against God and to start a war in Heaven. I had a book of Christian Mythology a while back, but I burned it. I remember having the same argument with someone 13 years ago until I showed him the book.
0 Replies
 
Sarah phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2008 05:36 pm
@Sarah phil,
Binyaman, you really burned a book?????????????
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2008 06:21 pm
@Sarah phil,
Quote:
Any proof for this? There were many people of Abraham. There are the Children of Ishmael and the decendants of Abraham's children that were born from his 3rd wife after the death of Sarah. The desendants of Essav are also decendants of Abraham. Also, Abraham's people could refer to Lavan's children which formed the nations of Ammon and Moav.

But the Nation of Israel that left Egypt were the Children of Yaacov (Jacob). I've never head that disputed before.


Again, I'm not talking about the mythological narrative; this is a historical issue. But even in the narrative, we see evidence of this. God sits and shares a meal with Abraham, but when God appears to Moses he appears as a burning bush, a scary event for Moses. Scholars have written about this.

What needs to be understood is that God changes over time. Gods merging over time into one deity, and gods being divided into two gods is very common.

Quote:
But the book of Enoch is a book that was part of the Dead Sea Sect before Yoshka Pendri (the man on the stick). This was not Jewdaism but an offshoot which wrote extreme things.
But Jews never identified anyone known as Lucifer including the dead sea sect. The Book of Enoch has no mention of Lucifer... look at this link.


First, even if the group is outside of the mainstream, the group was still Jewish. Gnostic Christians were an extreme, outside of the mainstream sect, but none the less Christian. I am not claiming that mainstream Judaism equates Satan to Lucifer, only that this equivocation can be found in some Jewish sources.

If you want to read up on it, I'd recommend this link:
JewishEncyclopedia.com - LUCIFER

Quote:
Christians began mixing up the two because of the book "Paradise Lost" and "Dante's Inferno"


Actually, the idea is far older than either of these allegories in Christian thought, though these works did popularize the connection. In Christian thinking, the idea first appears due to some odd translations.

Quote:
According to Christian Mythology, Lucifer was the Angel that ruled over Satan. Satan tricked him into going against God and to start a war in Heaven. I had a book of Christian Mythology a while back, but I burned it. I remember having the same argument with someone 13 years ago until I showed him the book.


Interesting, but again, this is all unknown to me. Do you recall the title of the book? I ask because nothing I've read says anything about Lucifer being the angel who rules over Satan.
Sir Neuron
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2008 12:53 am
@Didymos Thomas,
I have had a shower of wisdom fall on me lately.

God is the fundamental force that governs the motion of everything - at the quantum level, and as a consequence at the macro level. If you understand a bit of physics, you will get my point.

Can anyone please explain the difference among the Spirt, the Mind, the Soul and the Body?
[RIGHT]http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/images/PHBlue/misc/progress.gif[/RIGHT]

Need some Clarification on the Trinity of GOD (the Father, Son and Holy Spirt).
0 Replies
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2008 03:48 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
Again, I'm not talking about the mythological narrative; this is a historical issue. But even in the narrative, we see evidence of this. God sits and shares a meal with Abraham, but when God appears to Moses he appears as a burning bush, a scary event for Moses. Scholars have written about this.


Firstly, Angels come to Avraham and not God, and secondly the burning bush is a vision, not the method that God comes to Mosheh. The burning bush is a symbol for Israel. The bush is being burned but yet it thrives and eats the fire.
Thirdly it says about Moses.
"Hashem would Speak to Moses Face to face, as a man would speak with his fellow" (Shmot [Exodus] 33:10)


Didymos Thomas wrote:
What needs to be understood is that God changes over time. Gods merging over time into one deity, and gods being divided into two gods is very common.


Wow wow wow... be careful.
What needs to be understood is that God is Perfection. Something that is intrinsically perfect does not change from one state to another. The only thing that we can say changes, is God's Will towards us, based on our own actions.

Didymos Thomas wrote:
First, even if the group is outside of the mainstream, the group was still Jewish. Gnostic Christians were an extreme, outside of the mainstream sect, but none the less Christian. I am not claiming that mainstream Judaism equates Satan to Lucifer, only that this equivocation can be found in some Jewish sources.

If you want to read up on it, I'd recommend this link:
JewishEncyclopedia.com - LUCIFER



There is no concept of Lucifer in Jewdaism. I suggest you look in other places than the Jewish Encyclopedia for your information.
All of the people that are associated with that website are Reform Jewish Rabbis and Professors of Bible Criticism. They are not real Rabbis and have become Doctors in their own degrees that they themselves invented. They do not represent the 'true' jewish perspective but a modern disconnected perspective.

And Just so you know, there were many books that were not adopted by the Jewish People. Moby D i c k was not placed in the Bible. Also the book of Enoch was not placed in the Bible. Like I said, it was a book that existed in a small extremist group that lived in caves. It was labeled as an external book. Which means that it was on the same level as Moby D i c k. It was not written with Prophecy.

Sarah wrote:
Binyaman, you really burned a book?????????????


Anything that has to do with Idolatry. I've burned other books aswell :bigsmile:

Sir Neuron wrote:
Need some Clarification on the Trinity of GOD (the Father, Son and Holy Spirt).


Listen! God is one!
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2008 06:21 am
@Sarah phil,
Sir Neuron wrote:
Need some Clarification on the Trinity of GOD (the Father, Son and Holy Spirt).


They're just three mythological elements, among thousands, that have been invented over the years to add structure to various religious theories.

I'd think a course in the various religious systems would be nice - I wish I'd taken one back in college. Fascinating insight into the needs, desires and fears of the human animal across the centuries.
Sir Neuron
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2008 12:19 pm
@Sarah phil,
Binyamin Tsadik wrote:
Listen! God is one!


Not refuting that fact. However, need to understand the concept of the trinity some people believe in.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2008 06:56 pm
@Sir Neuron,
Quote:
Firstly, Angels come to Avraham and not God, and secondly the burning bush is a vision, not the method that God comes to Mosheh. The burning bush is a symbol for Israel. The bush is being burned but yet it thrives and eats the fire.


The text is fairly clear, God is accompanied by two angels, and they share a meal with Abraham. Yes, the Burning Bush is a symbol, but this does not change the nature of Moses' conversation with God.

Quote:
Thirdly it says about Moses.
"Hashem would Speak to Moses Face to face, as a man would speak with his fellow" (Shmot [Exodus] 33:10)


Are you sure the numbers are correct here? Several version exist, but none that I have seen look anything like this passage. Just one referrence:

Exodus 33:10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

Quote:
Wow wow wow... be careful.
What needs to be understood is that God is Perfection. Something that is intrinsically perfect does not change from one state to another. The only thing that we can say changes, is God's Will towards us, based on our own actions.


I am being careful. What you need to notice is that I am not speaking in mythological terms - I'm coming with historical information. God is perfect, but the way people discuss God, the way God is perceived, changes over time and varies from place to place. Even the Jewish conception of God has changed over time. This is historical fact.

Quote:
There is no concept of Lucifer in Jewdaism. I suggest you look in other places than the Jewish Encyclopedia for your information.
All of the people that are associated with that website are Reform Jewish Rabbis and Professors of Bible Criticism. They are not real Rabbis and have become Doctors in their own degrees that they themselves invented. They do not represent the 'true' jewish perspective but a modern disconnected perspective.

And Just so you know, there were many books that were not adopted by the Jewish People. Moby D i c k was not placed in the Bible. Also the book of Enoch was not placed in the Bible. Like I said, it was a book that existed in a small extremist group that lived in caves. It was labeled as an external book. Which means that it was on the same level as Moby D i c k. It was not written with Prophecy.


Again, I have not argued that Lucifer is part of mainstream Judaism. Lucifer is not part of mainstream Judaism and was only a part of Judaism thousands of years ago in a fringe Jewish group. None the less, the concept did arise in Judaism prior to Christ ever teaching, much less the publication of Dante.

As for the Trinity, many perspectives exist. In the Greek Orthodox Church (this isn't universal, but as a general rule), where God is one, the Trinity is taught as a sort of meditative practice. God is such a large concept, so you meditate on His various natures in order to better understand the whole that is God.
boagie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2008 07:11 pm
@Khethil,
Hi all!Smile

Is not god a psychological manfestation? What else could it be, we can only understand anything out of what we are selves are, for every need of our biology the fulfilment is to be found in this world, accept one, security, the bogyman of our temporality, death, and wouldn't you know it, they promise you ever lasting life------would you like to swing on a star, carry moonbeams home in a jar, and be better off than you are, or would you rather be, RELIGULOUS!!!:devilish:
0 Replies
 
Sarah phil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 07:04 am
@Sarah phil,
"everlasting life", a most nebulous term! Swinging with moonbeams sounds good tho.
0 Replies
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 08:22 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
The text is fairly clear, God is accompanied by two angels, and they share a meal with Abraham. Yes, the Burning Bush is a symbol, but this does not change the nature of Moses' conversation with God.


umm... God doesn't eat or take on any human form or likeness.. the text is quite clear.. it's 3 angels and not God.



Didymos Thomas wrote:
Are you sure the numbers are correct here?

Sorry, looks like it was 33:11 (that's what you get for not looking it up)

11 And the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face


Didymos Thomas wrote:
I am being careful. What you need to notice is that I am not speaking in mythological terms - I'm coming with historical information. God is perfect, but the way people discuss God, the way God is perceived, changes over time and varies from place to place. Even the Jewish conception of God has changed over time. This is historical fact.


I will agree to that if you will agree that intrinsically God does not change
Our perception only changes based on our understanding.

"I am HaShem (God) I do not change"
Malachi 3:6

Didymos Thomas wrote:
Again, I have not argued that Lucifer is part of mainstream Judaism. Lucifer is not part of mainstream Judaism and was only a part of Judaism thousands of years ago in a fringe Jewish group. None the less, the concept did arise in Judaism prior to Christ ever teaching, much less the publication of Dante.


Still, the Lucifer is not mentioned in Sefer Enoch (the book of Enoch) And I have never seen any evidence that the Dead Sea sect or any non-roman group used the word Lucifer (which is a latin word)

Didymos Thomas wrote:
As for the Trinity, many perspectives exist. In the Greek Orthodox Church (this isn't universal, but as a general rule), where God is one, the Trinity is taught as a sort of meditative practice. God is such a large concept, so you meditate on His various natures in order to better understand the whole that is God.


The entire idea of the trinity has Kabalistic origin but must be understood. The World of the Kabbalistic divisions does not describe God, but God's will alone.
These are what are known as the 10 sephirot and are organized in 3 groups. Look at the Avatar next to my name. One of the sephirot is called "Av" which means father, and another one is called "Em" which means mother. The group of six after it are called "Zeir Anpin" which means the short face.
And the final one is called 'Nukbah'

Also the word Holy spirit is called 'Ruach HaKodesh' which is a type of prophecy. It is a level that many sages are said to achieve, and it is the only form of prophecy that is left in our days.
 

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