Abortion

@Poseidon,

Poseidon wrote:

What bothers me about all this...

Do you have even the slightest shred of non-anecdotal evidence you can reference to back up a single thing you've said??

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The arguments for abortion; are mostly in favour of eugenics

That's nonsense. Most congenital diseases for which abortion is performed are not genetic.

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@Poseidon,

Poseidon wrote:

However, it is nearly always her parents who coerce her into the abortion; especially her father; who often has issues with someone having sex with HIS daughter in the first place.

Even if this is true, how is it relevant to the morality of abortion itself or to some greater effect abortion has on society?

You are indicting a unfair patriarchal social structure; if abortion is misused, it does not mean that abortion is bad.

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Also, a young man who has had his child aborted is similarly disturbed and emotionally distant from his living children thereafter. (If he dares to even try and have any).

I would also like to see this, as I have heard of lingering psychological effects on women after an abortion, but I have never heard this being the case with men.

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[1]Once a woman has accepted a man's seed into her body, then the unborn child is as much his as it is hers.
[2]After all, he is the the one that will be responsible for its welfare in later life.
[3]And men have to go to all sorts of lengths just to plant the seed in her body in the first place.

[1]Irrelevant and totally untrue. How you can equate ejaculation with gestation is beyond me.

[2]Irrelevant

[3]You have to be joking.

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When a woman allows a man to perform the deed, she is technically agreeing to have a child with him. The reproductive act is a form of contract. Normally it is the girls father who then forces the abortion on the man. Thus; it gives the rights to kill his child (which she has agreed to bare by having sex with him) to someone else (her father) who is outside of the realtionship, and does not have to suffer the consequences of the deed.

Not a single word in this is relevant or true.

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But the worst of this all is that the emotional damage of this, is life-long, to both the abortion-woman and the abortion-man. It makes one lose hope in society generally. And it decays the very fabric of society : trust. The consequences WILL be felt, but not necessarily understood.

So your damning argument is that abortion allows a girls father to force her to get an abortion and this will emotionally scar the man and woman for life?

Not only do I think that these forced abortions are very rare (and will continue to think this until I see some sort of data to back it up) and irrelevant, but it is the opponents of abortion who wish to force children to abide by their parents wishes.

Pro-abortion groups typically oppose parental notification requirements, if I remember correctly.

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Very often, the doctor is pursuaded by the father of the pregnant woman to sterilize the girl at the same time, and most such girls go on to become prostitutes, as that is all 'they are now considered 'good' for'.

WHAT?!

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I am not really debating this.

First thing you have said that appears to be true.

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The arguments for abortion; are mostly in favour of eugenics; and we all know where that leads. It is not so much a slippery slope, as a free-fall into a living hell.

Even if this were true, a blanket damnation of eugenics is laughable.

1 Reply

@Mr Fight the Power,

I think that there is a possible culture gap here. Poisiden is from Africa by his/her signature. I do not know how true what he says is in africa. Social matters are very difficult to discuss across cultural boundries, the North American/European family dynamic my be entirely different from the one in whatever country poisiden is from in Africa.

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@Zetetic11235,

Well, I'd like to get this thread going again, as I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

I do, indeed, believe that abortion is murder. Many people will tell you that it is not, since a fetus is not a person. But what a fetus is, is a potential for human life. Think about the ideas, or art, or experience that could come from the growth of that fetus. What could potentially come from that child is unknown unless the fetus is allowed to grow. I could never and would never personally support someone in the decision to have a child aborted.

This is my ethical view, though. Politically, I am against abortion bans. This has nothing to do with abortion, I'm an anarchist, and believe that everyone must decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong, and nobody's opinion is more authoritative than anyone else.

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@lakeshoredrive,

lakeshoredrive wrote:

I do, indeed, believe that abortion is murder..........

..........I'm an anarchist, and believe that everyone must decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong, and nobody's opinion is more authoritative than anyone else.

Hello Lakeshoredrive.
Please help me understand what you are saying. It is your belief that abortion is murder, but when you take into consideration your last comment about everyone deciding for themselves what is right or wrong, then what does it matter what you think? If I am understanding you, it doesn't matter to you what people do, they should be allowed to decide for themselves. Understanding there would or could be consequences as it relates to what society thinks, but someone who thinks everyone should decide for themselves, what you think becomes moot. Help me understand this please?:perplexed:

william

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@Peter phil,

Yes, I believe that everyone should form their own ethical values, but I believe also that everyone should be open to seeing all issues from different perspectives, and be open to change their views when they see something in a new light.
So what I say matters because it can help people see an issue from a perspective they may not have seen it from previously.

I would never stop someone from getting an abortion, I would only tell them why I believe they should not.

1 Reply

@lakeshoredrive,

lakeshoredrive wrote:

Yes, I believe that everyone should form their own ethical values, but I believe also that everyone should be open to seeing all issues from different perspectives, and be open to change their views when they see something in a new light.
So what I say matters because it can help people see an issue from a perspective they may not have seen it from previously.

I would never stop someone from getting an abortion, I would only tell them why I believe they should not.

Then, according to your view of murder and abortion being one and the same, it follows that we shouldn't stop people from committing murder, we should only attempt to convince them not to commit the murder.

1 Reply

@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

Then, according to your view of murder and abortion being one and the same, it follows that we shouldn't stop people from committing murder, we should only attempt to convince them not to commit the murder.

Exactly. That is, indeed, what I believe.
And pragmatically, you can't stop murder anyways. Regardless of what governing system is in place in a society of humans, murder will happen.

1 Reply

@lakeshoredrive,

lakeshoredrive;37983 wrote:

what a fetus is, is a potential for human life

So are two test tubes -- one with a sperm sample and the other with donor eggs. There is potential for a human life there too.

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Think about the ideas, or art, or experience that could come from the growth of that fetus.

Or the next Blogoyevich. :rolleyes:

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Regardless of what governing system is in place in a society of humans, murder will happen.

But there is less murder. Without laws and consequences, there would be a helluva lot more honor killings, domestic violence murders, revenge killings, euthanasia (even when clearly inappropriate), etc.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

So are two test tubes -- one with a sperm sample and the other with donor eggs. There is potential for a human life there too.

That is true, but it is a different degree of potential. It is only when the sperm comes in contact with ovum that they are no longer two independent cells, but one independent cell that is composed of two, now codependent, cells.

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Or the next Blogoyevich. :rolleyes:

Sure, but being an optimist is much more fun Smile

I prefer to imagine the next Jimi Hendrix, or Aldous Huxley

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@lakeshoredrive,

Aldous Huxley?; he was a significant advocate of LSD, or acid as the kids call it.

And you know the old slogan:
Acid
Amnesty and
Abortion

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@lakeshoredrive,

lakeshoredrive wrote:

Exactly. That is, indeed, what I believe.
And pragmatically, you can't stop murder anyways. Regardless of what governing system is in place in a society of humans, murder will happen.

To me this is getting extremely "sticky". If what you say is true, and abortion is murder, then one must reason there are those circumstances in which murder is to be legally sanctioned which is what abortion is. What does that say about our society? Where could this possibly lead when we begin to establish what is viable in regards to what is human and what is not human, which is the "logic" behind this sanction. If we can use this logic to destroy life in the womb, we can sure as hell find a way to sanction it outside the womb using that same insane logic. :perplexed:

William

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@Peter phil,

I have no stance on this issue, I cannot logically or empirically tell whether it is living or not or whether murder is being commited or not so I cannot say how i feel on this subject. I hope never to be put in the position to have to face the option of abortion

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@William,

William wrote:

If what you say is true, and abortion is murder...

For what he says to be true presupposes that you can inextricably tie a moral judgement to a biological phenomenon.

And that raises all the issues of how much do we KNOW about biological phenomena, and if we know enough to uniformly apply a moral judgement to what happens to a blastocyst or a morula.

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@Peter phil,

Legally, you cannot be murdered unless you first have already been born. Then there is also the clear legal distinction between things like "manslaughter" "homicide" and "murder".

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@Pangloss,

Abortion should not be in question,
but rather the question should be One's self control.
That's the only thing lacking here.

=
MJA

1 Reply

@MJA,

MJA;38112 wrote:

Abortion should not be in question,
but rather the question should be One's self control.
That's the only thing lacking here.

Perhaps, but as long as we have a society pervaded by people who lack self-control, they will be attempting to legitimize the negative results of their uncontrolled actions...so, abortion is in question, because...self-control, what is that? All they know is that they regret not using birth control, but thankfully they can get that abortion done to avoid the hassle of the child that would have been.

1 Reply

@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

Legally, you cannot be murdered unless you first have already been born. Then there is also the clear legal distinction between things like "manslaughter" "homicide" and "murder".

That's not true. Legally you can (and will) be charged with two counts of murder if you kill a pregnant woman and the fetus dies.

1 Reply

@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

Perhaps, but as long as we have a society pervaded by people who lack self-control, they will be attempting to legitimize the negative results of their uncontrolled actions...so, abortion is in question, because...self-control, what is that? All they know is that they regret not using birth control, but thankfully they can get that abortion done to avoid the hassle of the child that would have been.

How so very sad, and even more so, so very true of the world in which we live. We don't have the heart to give the infant to a loving family that would insure there would be no hassle, and choose to end any life that child could have had as we continue humping our way to happiness. God help us. Sorry, I call 'em like I see 'em.

William

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@Aedes,

Aedes;38126 wrote:

That's not true. Legally you can (and will) be charged with two counts of murder if you kill a pregnant woman and the fetus dies.

You're incorrect. Legally, there is a difference between "murder" and a "fetal homicide", which is what you are talking about.

2 Replies

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