OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 08:36 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
Ok, so you're elevating a metastatic cancer, choriocarcinoma, to the moral level of a human being. Choriocarcinoma is one possible outcome of a fertilized egg, but not all choriocarcinomas originate as a zygote. Does that mean that it's murder to treat a choriocarcinoma with chemotherapy if it arises from a fertilized egg, but it's fine to do so if the choriocarcinoma did not arise from a fertilized egg?



Lol your twisting things a little too far fertilized egg doesn't equal those conditions so I don't care if they are treated if you mean at the cost of the child or the mother situation that is different then just plain abortion for a relief from responsibility and of a child
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2008 03:59 am
@OntheWindowStand,
I know it's taking things a little too far -- that's what always happens with rigid moral stances. The problem is that it puts you in the position of defending ridiculous situations in order to remain morally consistent.

You seem to hold the position that all fertilized eggs are morally equivalent to humans. But when pressed on some of the things that a zygote can become other than a human, you are willing to allow for some exceptions (like when the life of the mother is threatened). Thus, you have an element of consequentialism here too, your moral stance is tempered by situational particulars. Well, that's exactly what a rigid anti-abortion advocate would accuse a rigid pro-choice advocate of, i.e. having moral inconsistency. In this case, it's just a matter of where you draw your line.
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2008 10:14 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
I know it's taking things a little too far -- that's what always happens with rigid moral stances. The problem is that it puts you in the position of defending ridiculous situations in order to remain morally consistent.

You seem to hold the position that all fertilized eggs are morally equivalent to humans. But when pressed on some of the things that a zygote can become other than a human, you are willing to allow for some exceptions (like when the life of the mother is threatened). Thus, you have an element of consequentialism here too, your moral stance is tempered by situational particulars. Well, that's exactly what a rigid anti-abortion advocate would accuse a rigid pro-choice advocate of, i.e. having moral inconsistency. In this case, it's just a matter of where you draw your line.


Having lines isn't bad living by code so strictly that inhibits normal living is
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2008 04:24 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
Agreed. Reasonable people can disagree about where the lines fall, though.
Sidus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 04:01 pm
@Aedes,
Yes, reasonable people can disagree about where to draw the line. But what about the concequences to a society that believes that it is okay for a woman to "choose" whether or not her child should live or die? You obscure the debate by talking about fetuses who will be born extemely defective (a rare occurance). (Yes, I understand you were answering the limited question concering pain.) I believe in capital punishment, so I believe there are times when killing is justified, however, killing as a deterrent to murder is a far different thing than killing because you don't want a child.
And don't fool yourself, the majority of abortions arise not because the fetus is a "zygote" but from an irresponsible wish to rid oneself of an outcome that was not desired.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 07:46 pm
@Sidus,
Sidus wrote:
But what about the concequences to a society that believes that it is okay for a woman to "choose" whether or not her child should live or die?
And what about a society that has an unsafe abortion "black market" as ours once did? And what about the implication for womens' ability to participate in society when they are legally committed to carry an unwanted pregnancy? These are the other sides of the debate.

Quote:
You obscure the debate by talking about fetuses who will be born extemely defective (a rare occurance).
No, just illustrating how absurd is the argument that a zygote deserves the same moral consideration as any other human -- which is exactly what is meant by the idea that it's murder to kill a fertilized egg.

Quote:
I believe in capital punishment
A separate debate, but it's hard to justify capital punishment in a system that is blatantly racist and that's at such peril of executing someone who is innocent.

Quote:
And don't fool yourself, the majority of abortions arise not because the fetus is a "zygote" but from an irresponsible wish to rid oneself of an outcome that was not desired.
It's hard to see this point as analytical when you see the need to infuse it with your own moral judgement. Furthermore, whatever the statistics, you're conflating within "irresponsible" pregnancies among rape victims, among minors who were too young to fully understand consequences, and among women carrying a baby with a major congenital defect.

And if you say it's ok for rape victims to have an abortion at 12 weeks gestation but NOT ok for an "irresponsible" teen at the same gestational age, then you're not attaching ANY moral significance to the baby -- you're only passing judgement on the mother.
Sidus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 07:53 am
@Aedes,
This is strange. I thought I deleted this post, obviously I'm not too good at the mechanics of posting on this site. But, I still think you're wrong. Society pays a terrible price when it reduces the decision of life and death to choice. This is something that should be reserved for the flavor of one's ice cream cone.

It does not matter if some people actually do get abortions. And before Roe v. Wade it was up to the states whether or not abortion was legal. The real problem is when we accept that ANY pregnancy can be terminated on the whim of the mother; are there any repercussions for us as a society? I think so.

I only mentioned capital punishment to show that I'm not against all murder. There are times when it is absolutely irrefutable that someone has committed murder, but most liberals whould prefer to save the lives or murderers on the pretense of possible racism while they have no problem with allowing a mother carte blanche on decisions of life and death. Amazing.
midas77
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 08:51 am
@Sidus,
Sidus wrote:
Society pays a terrible price when it reduces the decision of life and death to choice....
... The real problem is when we accept that ANY pregnancy can be terminated on the whim of the mother; are there any repercussions for us as a society? I think so.

May I ask what is the potential repercussions for the society on abortion?

I see a lot of harm done on the individual forced by "society" to carry an unwanted pregnancy. Pregnancy is a sacrifice. Is it not unjust to force an individual to do something that she clearly do not want? Economical and emotional consideration should also be given to the individual. Will society pays for the individuals sacrifice? I will not certainly. It goes against my grain to pay for the stupidity of another. If they don't want to be pregnant why should they? Contraception is always an option.

Do not get me wrong. I do not condone abortion. I think its a sign of immaturity on the part of the person not to accept a responsibility for the result of his/her action. But think of it, it is always nice to have a cool, clean and green front lawn but if your neighbor can not afford it because of their bad decision in finances, are you willing to shoulder the cost for symmetry?
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 10:59 am
@Sidus,
Sidus wrote:
most liberals whould prefer to save the lives or murderers on the pretense of possible racism...
It's an issue of if we're prepared to execute innocent people. Sure, some are guilty of terrible crimes. Sure, some people are so horrible that they deserve to die. But our justice system is SO imperfect, especially with respect to the death penalty that I think it's ridiculous to assume that it can actually reliably determine who deserves to die and who doesn't. How many innocent people who are put to death would you consider acceptable in order to have a capital punishment system? I would answer zero.

Quote:
...while they have no problem with allowing a mother carte blanche on decisions of life and death.
The problem here is you're looking at abortion in isolation from all the other issues that it's part of. If we are interested in a society in which women are able to fully self-actualize, then they need access to contraception, freedom to divorce, unrestricted access to education and to professional advancement, and unrestricted ownership of their own medical decisions. Pregnancy (let alone delivery and parenthood) places such immense physical, economic, social, and professional constraints on women that we will NEVER have a society in which women enjoy all the freedoms of men when women pay a far bigger price for the same "irresponsible" act.
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 12:49 pm
@Aedes,
You may look at liberals and say they aren't consistent well its true they believe what helps their agenda.
0 Replies
 
Sidus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 01:25 pm
@midas77,
What repercussions does abortion have on society? It undermines morality. Presumably, before abortion on demand people found it as difficult as they now find it to be good. But then the call to goodness was not clouded by a society that explicitly said it was a woman's right to literally kill her mistakes. There was a time when the family was the economic fundament of life, the basic welfare of children could not be assured outside of, or before, the family was established. And since contraception was not reliable and abortions were not acceptable, the reasons for sexual discipline were palpable.

Then I suppose you believe in life in prison without parole. Otherwise what of the innocent people killed by a murderer who does not fear capital punishment.

No, I understand all too well the larger implications of abortion on demand.
Women cannot be equal to men since they are not men. They can never be equal unless you are talking about equality of results, another word for socialism. But history shows that equality of results is not practical, worse it is tyrannical.

The only thing that equality of results has accomplished where it has been implemented is to spread poverty and famine. It has never raised the living standards of those it claimed to benefit, but has only lowered them. As has been noted by many - "capitalism is the uneven distribution of wealth, and socialism the even distribution of poverty."

In the real world none of us have unrestricted access to much of anything. Unless we are self-centered monsters life will always impose restrictions.
Ruthless Logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 02:45 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
It's an issue of if we're prepared to execute innocent people. Sure, some are guilty of terrible crimes. Sure, some people are so horrible that they deserve to die. But our justice system is SO imperfect, especially with respect to the death penalty that I think it's ridiculous to assume that it can actually reliably determine who deserves to die and who doesn't. How many innocent people who are put to death would you consider acceptable in order to have a capital punishment system? I would answer zero.

The problem here is you're looking at abortion in isolation from all the other issues that it's part of. If we are interested in a society in which women are able to fully self-actualize, then they need access to contraception, freedom to divorce, unrestricted access to education and to professional advancement, and unrestricted ownership of their own medical decisions. Pregnancy (let alone delivery and parenthood) places such immense physical, economic, social, and professional constraints on women that we will NEVER have a society in which women enjoy all the freedoms of men when women pay a far bigger price for the same "irresponsible" act.



Why is the predictability of inconsistency so consistent within the liberal ideology. It is not an issue of the flexibility of social enlightenment, but rather the responses to the anxieties of self-imposed moral conformity, and the subsequent immature emotional responses that must follow, invoking their will in entirety

Example; On the topic of Capital Punishment, the liberal establishment indicates that because the process of executions cannot guarantee the absolute rigidity of empirical numerical standards ( zero chance of an innocent person being executed), which by the way is completely unattainable(idealistic), then society should not have access to Capital Punishment, but would extend the complete latitude to a woman as it pertains to the serious issue of considering and executing the inherent permanence of an abortion based on the subjectivity of an assigned mathematical ratio (bigger price). Perceived credibility is profoundly connected to the concept of consistency, and this is where the carelessness of the liberal agenda catastrophically fails.
Ruthless Logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 03:10 pm
@Aedes,
Sidus wrote:
Then I suppose you believe in life in prison without parole. Otherwise what of the innocent people killed by a murderer who does not fear capital punishment.

No, I understand all too well the larger implications of abortion on demand.
Women cannot be equal to men since they are not men. They can never be equal unless you are talking about equality of results, another word for socialism. But history shows that equality of results is not practical, worse it is tyrannical.

The only thing that equality of results has accomplished where it has been implemented is to spread poverty and famine. It has never raised the living standards of those it claimed to benefit, but has only lowered them. As has been noted by many - "capitalism is the uneven distribution of wealth, and socialism the even distribution of poverty."

In the real world none of us have unrestricted access to much of anything. Unless we are self-centered monsters life will always impose restrictions.



Great overview of Socialism vs. pursuit of self-interest (Capitalism). Your detailing clearly reflects an analysis unhindered from the fatalistic pursuits of idealism, and exponentially more reflective of the inherent behavior of Human Beings.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 07:37 pm
@Ruthless Logic,
Sidus wrote:
What repercussions does abortion have on society? It undermines morality.
At least according to the moral schema of those who share your values. But since when are they universalizable?

Sidus wrote:
Then I suppose you believe in life in prison without parole. Otherwise what of the innocent people killed by a murderer who does not fear capital punishment.
I have no problem with life in prison without parole, because there is recourse for an innocent person to reclaim some of his life. And again, there is no evidence that capital punishment is an actual deterrent to murder. You think Texas and Florida and Virginia have fewer murders per capita than states without the death penalty?[/COLOR]



[quote]Women cannot be equal to men since they are not men. They can never be equal unless you are talking about equality of results, another word for socialism.[/quote]I'm talking about equality of self-actualization. And given that women have every cognitive and professional capability of men in every respect other than physical tasks, they deserve every opportunity to achieve what they want.

Ruthless Logic wrote:
Why is the predictability of inconsistency so consistent within the liberal ideology.
Life and human behavior are both predictably inconsistent. That's why someone with a shred of compassion would find it ridiculous to endorse a government sponsored policy of executing people in a grossly imperfect system under the ideal of "justice".

Quote:
...but would extend the complete latitude to a woman as it pertains to the serious issue of considering and executing the inherent permanence of an abortion
The difference here is that in the case of abortion it's the individual who gets to decide what she wants for her own body. In the case of execution it's pro-execution "activist judges" that get to decide without any concern for the imperfections of their own system. Ironic how my protest here sounds a great deal like conservative language.
Pythagorean
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 08:04 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:


Life and human behavior are both predictably inconsistent. That's why someone with a shred of compassion would find it ridiculous to endorse a government sponsored policy of executing people in a grossly imperfect system under the ideal of "justice".


Excuse me, but if "the system" is in fact "grossly imperfect" then it is the people who make up the system who are to blame and not some abstraction. And it is from this very same group of people that the originators of criminal murder issue forth and it is also from this very same group of people that the cry for "justice" on behalf of the murdered are coming from.

So you have murderers and the loved ones of the murdered and the voters who institute the policy of whether or not to have a death penalty. And of all three of these it seems that the focus might be best if it is upon the act of murder and not some abstractions of "the system" or some "ideal of justice". Or so it seems to me, because without the first act of murder in the community such a policy would be irrelevant. For, what would the death penalty be if there were no murders committed? The death penalty seems to be an understandable response on the part of the murdered victim's loved ones. Our compassion rightly belongs with the victims.

--
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 08:04 pm
@Aedes,
Quote:
I'm talking about equality of self-actualization. And given that women have every cognitive and professional capability of men in every respect other than physical tasks, they deserve every opportunity to achieve what they want.


Men have a higher cognitive ability then women. Women have the ability of logic to a extent but opt out often for a emotional response this is of course general some women are very logical
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 08:19 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
OntheWindowStand wrote:
Men have a higher cognitive ability then women. Women have the ability of logic to a extent but opt out often for a emotional response this is of course general some women are very logical
That's complete nonsense and it's been shown repeatedly to be so.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 08:23 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean wrote:
Excuse me, but if "the system" is in fact "grossly imperfect" then it is the people who make up the system who are to blame and not some abstraction.
A system that depends on imperfect people using imperfect evidence and poorly defined criteria is a grossly imperfect system.

Quote:
So you have murderers and the loved ones of the murdered and the voters who institute the policy of whether or not to have a death penalty. And of all three of these it seems that the focus might be best if it is upon the act of murder and not some abstractions of "the system" or some "ideal of justice".
It's not an abstraction if you look at statistics that show that for the exact same crime in the exact same jurisdiction blacks are FAR more likely to be given the death penalty than whites. It's not an abstraction if people on death row are not allowed to challenge their conviction using DNA evidence.

Quote:
For, what would the death penalty be if there were no murders committed?
Ask Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

Quote:
The death penalty seems to be an understandable response on the part of the murdered victim's loved ones. Our compassion rightly belongs with the victims.
So satiating their visceral urge for retribution is compassionate? Nothing will restore a loss like that, and in fact indulging it seems to completely miss the point of what compassion is.
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 08:56 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
That's complete nonsense and it's been shown repeatedly to be so.


On average men have a iq score 5 points higher

they have more brain tissue they score higher on SATs

One billion women or illiterate while only 200 million men

more Nobel prize winners are men

Schools favor women and all of this is still true

study down by J. Philippe Rushton a doctor at Colorado university shows all of this except the last part
midas77
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 09:06 pm
@Sidus,
Sidus wrote:
What repercussions does abortion have on society? It undermines morality. Presumably, before abortion on demand people found it as difficult as they now find it to be good. But then the call to goodness was not clouded by a society that explicitly said it was a woman's right to literally kill her mistakes. There was a time when the family was the economic fundament of life, the basic welfare of children could not be assured outside of, or before, the family was established. And since contraception was not reliable and abortions were not acceptable, the reasons for sexual discipline were palpable.


I think you are talking in circles. Society is not there for morality. Morality seeks to benefit society, not the other way around. Besides the morality you sponsor is a male morality. I think it is wrong to funish the female when they are forced into abortion for the reason that a male abandoned her. We must understand that pregnancy is a difficult time for the female. Why is it that its the female that deserves to be funished when its always takes two to tango.

Personally I will never allowed my unborn child to be aborted or any of the unborn child of my extended family. If anyone tries to force an individual for a sacrifice, society must shoulder the expenses. But I will now shoulder people's idiotic mistakes. Will you?
 

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