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The Understated Effects of "Cash For Clunkers" and Other Government Idiocy

 
 
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 07:33 am
or

Why I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love the Bailout

______________________________________________

All over the media we are learning about how well the stimulus is working. The stock market is rapidly approaching 10,000 again. Bond rates are dropping. Economic contraction was at 1% in the second quarter, drastically improved from the 6.4% of the first quarter. We will soon hear new unemployment figures which will likely be up a tenth of a percent to 9.6%, and this will be lauded as a peak in the unemployment rate (it won't be mentioned that this exceeds the worst scenario used in the stress tests, or that the stimulus was supposed to cap unemployment at 8%, or that underemployment is likely more than double that rate).

Economists, think-tanks, and New York Times columnists will all be pointing out "signs of recovery" and will begin using terms such as "v-shape recovery". In other words, we will be hearing about "recovery" more often than a physical therapy patient.

No better example of the success story of the stimulus than the cash for clunkers deal. Just recently, this successful and popular program just received another two billion dollars, effectively tripling its original outlay. It is impossible to deny that this has been a boon to the auto industry: according to government officials, 180,000 vehicles have been sold as a result.

I am sure anyone who had the misfortune of reading this can see the dark cloud of gloom hanging over my words. You are asking yourself, "Brad, with all of this wonderful information, why should I not think of this as an unqualified success?"

Funny you should ask.

The purpose of this stimulus program and others is to spur consumption by increasing demand. The government, however, cannot created demand within the private sector. It can merely shift demand around in time. With the "Cash for Clunkers" program, we do not see a real increase in demand, rather people are simply shifting priorities and sacrificing other expenditures to purchase their car this year. This simply means that those who would buy a car this year buy a car this year, and those that would buy a car next year buy a car this year. So we have a seen a shifting forward in demand. What happens when this next $2 billion dollars runs out, however? Will we see all of those individuals who shifted their car purchase ahead a year make another vehicle purchase? Surely not. We can expect to see the bubble in car purchasing burst with some very bad effects. At this point, however, I would not be surprised to see ongoing subsidizing of car purchasing extended indefinitely.

Now, there a counter has been offered up to the likelihood of a drop off in car sales, but it also opens an entirely new can of moral worms. We will see if your indignation builds as much as mine as I explain it to you.

Our economic saviors: Fence-sitters.

According to this article, these people have made "Cash for Clunkers" a "hit". Instead of those people who would be purchasing cars out of need in a normal car ownership cycle, we are seeing a car buyer that we would not normally see, for example:

"Mike Ward, an attorney from rural eastern Virginia, had no plans to replace his 1995 Ford Explorer, known to his family as the 'dog car' because they used it to drive their dogs around."

Many people, like Mike, are using the cash for clunkers deal not to replace their primary vehicle, but rather to give them the incentive to replace that third vehicle that they just really don't want to deal with. You see, Mike would not normally have replaced this old vehicle, but repairs were getting expensive, and apparently Mike's dogs were simply not being transported in enough comfort. So Mike put tax-payer dollars to good use:

"Ward drove the 80 miles to a Lexus dealership and bought a midsize SUV for $40,000 after discounts."

That's right. That is the secret to the success of the cash for clunkers deal.
"Dealers say buyers are predominantly older drivers who own more than one vehicle and have a clunker to spare.

'These were not people that we would see normally,' said Jim Paul, co-owner of four Pontiac-GMC-Buick dealerships near Minneapolis, suggesting sales at his showrooms could return to normal when the program expires rather than drop off, as some economists have suggested."


So our wonderful government, as usual, has brought about an economic recovery by subsidizing the wealthy and spurring unnecessary debt spending.


The basics of this are simple. Before the "Cash for Clunkers" deal, there were many people who were wanting to buy new vehicles, but simply would not use them enough to make the expenditure worthwhile. With the governments help, these individuals were able to overlook the costs they would be taking on for owning a car even while they were not using it.



Now we find ourselves in a bad position. Either we have simply taken on a great deal of debt as a nation to postpone the crisis, or we have taken on a great deal of debt as a nation to pay for the wealthy to store a car in their driveway as opposed to a showroom. This particular bailout either did nothing, or paid people to not use cars.


So while we may have seen an increase in spending, it does not follow from a real increase in consumption or demand. It is just useless spending, investing in capital that will show no return.


Increased useful consumption and real demand can only come from increasing real wages. People can only truly purchase and consume more if they are more productive and increase their wages. Real economic recovery would come from a growth in productive capital. We do not see either.

First, real wages are dropping. June was the 9th month in the last ten in which salaries and wages have dropped. June also showed the biggest drop in income in four years.


And as for productive capital, not only are cars now being paid for to go unused by the government, but the government is taking older cars off the road. The real damaging side effect of this deal, depending on your viewpoint, is the fact that this is rapidly driving up the costs of used cars and almost completely shutting off the flow of car donations. This means cars that would actually increase the productive capabilities of this country, by providing reliable primary transportation, are becoming more and more difficult to come by.


This stimulus is a dramatic shifting of vehicles from productive use to unproductive use. This is the way it is with all government stimulus simply because government cannot be productive on its own, it can only shift production.



This stimulus is a dramatic shifting from saving and responsible spending to credit spending. This is the way it is with all government stimulus because government cannot hope to imitate all natural and healthy spending patterns.


This stimulus is a dramatic shifting of wealth from those living off modest incomes to those with incomes to spare. This is the way it is with all government stimulus as the wealthy will always have the resources necessary to exploit government handouts.


Stimulus packages do not save the economy for all people; stimulus packages save the economy for the wealthy and powerful.
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richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 08:31 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power;81733 wrote:
The purpose of this stimulus program and others is to spur consumption by increasing demand. The government, however, cannot created demand within the private sector. It can merely shift demand around in time.


Hi,

All type of borrowing, whether it be private or public does the same thing. The gigantic economic disaster that we created came right from the private sector that over lended and over leveraged, just so a few people (the top 1%) could get fabulously wealthy. Now, middle class folks like myself have to pay for the mess they created, just so the economy doesn't collapse. It is a transfer of money from savers to borrowers - borrowers created by the free market system.

Rich
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 08:41 am
@richrf,
richrf;81751 wrote:
Hi,

All type of borrowing, whether it be private or public does the same thing. The gigantic economic disaster that we created came right from the private sector that over lended and over leveraged, just so a few people (the top 1%) could get fabulously wealthy. Now, middle class folks like myself have to pay for the mess they created, just so the economy doesn't collapse. It is a transfer of money from savers to borrowers - borrowers created by the free market system.

Rich


The savings/debt ratio is primarily a function of interests rates which are managed by the central bank.

The Fed stimulated massive borrowing in the last 10 years by dropping interest rates, and no economic class was innocent of taking on debt that they shouldn't have.

Remember that a big cause of the economic crisis was the massive amount of middle class folks who took on debt that they couldn't handle and began to default on.

And as for the upper 1% getting fabulously wealthy, also remember that the new middle class was living in 250,000 homes and owned two $30,000-$40000 vehicles.

What mechanics of the free market system do you blame?
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 08:54 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power;81756 wrote:
The savings/debt ratio is primarily a function of interests rates which are managed by the central bank.[

The Fed stimulated massive borrowing in the last 10 years by dropping interest rates, and no economic class was innocent of taking on debt that they shouldn't have.

Remember that a big cause of the economic crisis was the massive amount of middle class folks who took on debt that they couldn't handle and began to default on.

And as for the upper 1% getting fabulously wealthy, also remember that the new middle class was living in 250,000 homes and owned two $30,000-$40000 vehicles.

What mechanics of the free market system do you blame?


The reason we had such a fiasco was because private lenders lent money to people that should never have it and pushed their own leverage (this is totally independent of the Feds), to over 40:1. The reason that they were able to do this was because Moody's and S&P gave these garbage loans a AAA rating so that they can be pawned off overseas as CDOs.

The bankers got their money upfront. They made a zillion. The taxpayers have to bail out the system. For my money, I would love to tax all of these billionaires 90% on the money they made, and get it all back.

BTW, the Feds are not an independent lot. Most of these guys come from Goldman Sachs and alike and they take care of their buddies. Rich people know how to get richer. They buy off politicians. That's what happens in a Free Market. The rich get richer, and they still are.

Rich
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 08:56 am
@richrf,
richrf;81759 wrote:
They buy off politicians. That's what happens in a Free Market.


Cognitive dissonance. Rethink this and get back to me.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 09:08 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power;81760 wrote:
Cognitive dissonance. Rethink this and get back to me.


I rethought it. The free market system necessarily begets a government that seeks to benefit the rich who are reaping the rewards of the system. Something that Adam Smith forgot to take into account. It is a natural consequence.

Rich
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 09:28 am
@richrf,
richrf;81763 wrote:
I rethought it. The free market system necessarily begets a government that seeks to benefit the rich who are reaping the rewards of the system. Something that Adam Smith forgot to take into account. It is a natural consequence.

Rich


A free market and a government are mutually exclusive concepts.

And Adam Smith was not a strong free marketeer. He supported government intervention in certain situations.

---------- Post added 08-07-2009 at 11:37 AM ----------

This line of conversation is so off-track I'm going to stop.

This is about the bailout programs, not about the causes of the current crisis or the problems of the free market.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:09 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power;81765 wrote:
A free market and a government are mutually exclusive concepts.


Like everything else in life, it is all intertwined. Limbaugh is a great example of how the wealthy attempt to move political opinion in their favor in order to gain more control.

Rich
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 11:12 pm
@richrf,
Mr. Fight the Power;81733 wrote:

Stimulus packages do not save the economy for all people; stimulus packages save the economy for the wealthy and powerful.


Right: because insuring that GM does not go under does nothing for the employees of GM who are anything but wealthy and powerful. Doesn't help them at all :rolleyes:
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 05:00 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;82017 wrote:
Right: because insuring that GM does not go under does nothing for the employees of GM who are anything but wealthy and powerful. Doesn't help them at all :rolleyes:


Farmers also help their cattle by feeding them.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 08:03 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Would you like to come up with an analogous comparison?
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 09:18 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power;81756 wrote:
The savings/debt ratio is primarily a function of interests rates which are managed by the central bank.


The savings/debt ratio crashed (debt/equity is a better measure), because bankers and lenders were lending to people who had no income, no savings, not way to pay back the money. They way they pulled off this scam, was by paying off S&P and Moody's to get AAA ratings on this junk, so that it could be sold to unsuspecting investors in the U.S. and overseas. It was absolutely the biggest scam ever conceived by the Free Market to transfer money from the poor to the rich. Goldman, J.P Morgan, Morgan Stanley, and the rest of the scam artists got their money up front.

The Federal Reserve and FDIC should have stopped this scam dead in its tracks, but they were all in the pockets of Free Market capitalists who believe that no scam should be interrupted when there is fantastic money to be made. Other than turning their backs on the whole scam, the U.S. government had nothing to do with it. No one forced the bankers to give money to someone with no money down and no means to repay. It was just a gigantic scam which the middle class now has to bail out.

Quote:
The Fed stimulated massive borrowing in the last 10 years by dropping interest rates, and no economic class was innocent of taking on debt that they shouldn't have.


No one forced bankers to make loans to parties who could never pay it back.

Quote:
Remember that a big cause of the economic crisis was the massive amount of middle class folks who took on debt that they couldn't handle and began to default on.


They should have never been loaned the money. Never, ever, ever, ever. They had no credit, no savings, no jobs, and no money down. But the bankers didn't care because they jettisoned the loans overseas and got their money upfront. It was a very simple scam. The bankers paid off everyone - the politicians, the regulators, the bond raters, the middle men. People got fabulously wealthy because they were wealthy enough to pay off everyone. That is how the free market system works. The rich get richer by buying power and influence.

Rich
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 06:15 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;82206 wrote:
Would you like to come up with an analogous comparison?


Just pointing out that just because you make the necessary arrangements to provide for someone, you are not necessarily treating them fairly or graciously.

At the end of the day, guaranteeing the success of large industries run poorly by the wealthy elite also guarantees that there will continue to be a wealthy elite that leeches off of the working class.

---------- Post added 08-10-2009 at 08:31 AM ----------

richrf;82217 wrote:
The Federal Reserve and FDIC should have stopped this scam dead in its tracks


Except they didn't. Now people have begun to recognize that the government is not protection and have started hiring private investigators.

Quote:
No one forced bankers to make loans to parties who could never pay it back.


The natural result of issuing loans that no cannot be paid back is default and loss of money. If we had a free market economy, this would have happened, and there wouldn't be a need for a middle class bailout.

Of course it didn't happen because we have the largest state in the history of the world here in the US.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 08:13 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power;82278 wrote:
The natural result of issuing loans that no cannot be paid back is default and loss of money. If we had a free market economy, this would have happened, and there wouldn't be a need for a middle class bailout.


I don't know where you have been, but we had an enormous amount of default and loss of money. Had the banks failed, then every single saver would have loss all of their money just like they use to do before FDIC, and there would have been a run on the banks and we would have spiraled into a situation worse than the Great Depression.

The glorified Free Market worked just as it does. The rich get richer. They buy power and protection. They scam the public and then they put their riches in Swiss Bank accounts. This is the free market. You are just dreaming about some idealized world where free market capitalists don't scam the public and have some ethical code. It doesn't exist. Never did.

Rich
TheSingingSword
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 08:23 am
@richrf,
richrf;82293 wrote:
I don't know where you have been, but we had an enormous amount of default and loss of money. Had the banks failed, then every single saver would have loss all of their money just like they use to do before FDIC, and there would have been a run on the banks and we would have spiraled into a situation worse than the Great Depression.

The glorified Free Market worked just as it does. The rich get richer. They buy power and protection. They scam the public and then they put their riches in Swiss Bank accounts. This is the free market. You are just dreaming about some idealized world where free market capitalists don't scam the public and have some ethical code. It doesn't exist. Never did.

Rich

Rich, I can't see anything wrong with your posts on this thread, except for one thing - You are describing the current American economic model, but you are not describing what would be considered a free market. I think this is a very important distinction. In a free market, there can never be a "bailout", for instance, because there is a concrete separation of government and economy.

Whether you favor free markets or not, I believe you should study the concept more thoroughly before denigrating it.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 08:48 am
@TheSingingSword,
TheSingingSword;82296 wrote:
Whether you favor free markets or not, I believe you should study the concept more thoroughly before denigrating it.


Free market is a idealized view of the world in which people obey laws or do not skirt laws to make money. What happened in the U.S. is exactly the result of free markets. The government regulators stepped aside and they allowed financial industries to do anything and everything they wanted to do - and they did.

They loaned money to people who shouldn't have it. They then scammed investors by labeling the loans as AAA CDOs. And then they pawned these loans off to unsuspecting investors overseas and the U.S. . The experiment failed. It failed before (the 1929 Great Depression) and it failed again (the 2008 Great Recession). Please, no more experimenting with ideas such as free market capitalism somehow regulates itself. It doesn't. It scams.

So all those nice neat textbooks have to be re-written to take into account that people love money and will do anything they can to get it - even break the law like Madoff did - to the tune of 60 billion dollars (and he was just one of many, many, many). The guys in Goldman should also be thrown in jail for those CDOs, but what they did was OK. All they did was pay off the people at S&P and Moody's.

Rich
TheSingingSword
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 09:05 am
@richrf,
richrf;82298 wrote:
Free market is a idealized view of the world in which people obey laws or do not skirt laws to make money. What happened in the U.S. is exactly the result of free markets. The government regulators stepped aside and they allowed financial industries to do anything and everything they wanted to do - and they did.

They loaned money to people who shouldn't have it. They then scammed investors by labeling the loans as AAA CDOs. And then they pawned these loans off to unsuspecting investors overseas and the U.S. . The experiment failed. It failed before (the 1929 Great Depression) and it failed again (the 2008 Great Recession). Please, no more experimenting with ideas such as free market capitalism somehow regulates itself. It doesn't. It scams.

Rich

I have three thoughts on this:

1) There was government pressure on banks to give loans to unqualified citizens. That is not a free market. I understand that the financial institutions deceived investors with the AAA ratings, this was a scam to unload the toxic assets the government had forced upon them. Kind of a chicken and egg thing there. Great argument for a truly free market.

2) The people who accepted these loans must ultimately take responsibility for their actions. I believe we will see quite a few repossessions when the smoke clears around the "clunkers" program. Only the individual can make a truly informed decision on what he can or cannot afford.

3) There would be no bailouts in a truly free market. No bank is "too big to fail". Bankruptcy is the natural selection of the economic world. Yes, many people would have lost their savings in the wake of this, but that has to be understood as a possibility before investing in something. With reward comes risk.


While I'm not wholly convinced that Laissez-Faire Capitalism is the best form of economics, I feel it is important to point out the fact that this crisis did not take place in that environment. Laissez-Faire may or may not work, but it would certainly remove government corruption from the market place. In all fairness, we must also admit that Laissez-Faire has never been implemented, so we are dealing with a theory, and have no practical data to examine.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 09:28 am
@TheSingingSword,
TheSingingSword;82299 wrote:
I have three thoughts on this:

1) There was government pressure on banks to give loans to unqualified citizens. That is not a free market. I understand that the financial institutions deceived investors with the AAA ratings, this was a scam to unload the toxic assets the government had forced upon them. Kind of a chicken and egg thing there. Great argument for a truly free market.


Almost all of the bad loans were the result of greedy mortgage lenders (Countrywide) and their cohorts. There was absolutely zero government pressure for what happened in Florida, Nevada, California, and most of the rest of the U.S. I knew people involved in this scam. They were interested in one thing and one thing only - leveraging their books 40x, 80x, as much as they could to make loans so that they could pocket the upfront fees. It was everywhere, as people got giddy making money with no government oversight at all. Exactly the same thing has occurred throughout world history (1700s, 1800s, 1900s) - and they always led to bank runs until this time, thanks to government intervention.

TheSingingSword;82299 wrote:
2) The people who accepted these loans must ultimately take responsibility for their actions.


You have to be kidding. They just walked away from them by the tens of thousands. They don't care. Neither do the bankers who already pocketed their fees. Those who took out the bogus loans just lived rent free for a few years and then left their homes to rot. The bankers stuffed their personal accounts with their bonuses. That is the free market at work! And everyone who owns a home, had theirs devalued because of all the vacant homes that surround them. All this directly caused by bankers and financial institutions who leveraged their books over 40X.


TheSingingSword;82299 wrote:
3) There would be no bailouts in a truly free market. No bank is "too big to fail".


Yep, and then there is a run on all of the banks and the economy collapses. Nice idea. But we already tried that experiment out in 1929. I believe the Republican Hoover was in charge of that disaster.



TheSingingSword;82299 wrote:
Laissez-Faire may or may not work, but it would certainly remove government corruption from the market place. In all fairness, we must also admit that Laissez-Faire has never been implemented, so we are dealing with a theory, and have no practical data to examine.


The last 20 years was about as laissey-faire as you can get. The money institutions ran wild and did practically everything they wanted with the money that was entrusted to them. They bankrupted almost every large manufacturing and financial institution while the top tier pocketed all of the money they could get a hold of. Look at the gigantic amount of wealth accumulated by the top 1% in the last 20 years. The highest percentage of GDP ever!

The experiment ended as expected. The rich go richer (obscenely so) and the poor really got poor, and the middle class has to pony up because no one wants to throw the bankers in jail and get their money out of the Swiss bank accounts. Madoff is in jail but the Goldman scoundrels still out in the wild.

Rich
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 09:30 am
@TheSingingSword,
Mr. Fight the Power;82278 wrote:
Just pointing out that just because you make the necessary arrangements to provide for someone, you are not necessarily treating them fairly or graciously.


No doubt, I agree. However, those people having a decent job is better than them having no employment, insurance, healthcare, ect.

Mr. Fight the Power;82278 wrote:
At the end of the day, guaranteeing the success of large industries run poorly by the wealthy elite also guarantees that there will continue to be a wealthy elite that leeches off of the working class.



Again, I agree. But we must also remember that letting such a company fail will not eliminate that wealthy elite, not even the wealthy elite who run said company. Allowing such a company to fail will not cause serious harm to the elite of the company, but it would cause serious harm to the working class of that company.

Man, I don't like the situation, but we cannot ignore that what is, is.
[/COLOR]
0 Replies
 
TheSingingSword
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 09:40 am
@richrf,
richrf;82303 wrote:
Almost all of the bad loans were the result of greedy mortgage lenders (Countrywide) and their cohorts. There was absolutely zero government pressure for what happened in Florida, Nevada, California, and most of the rest of the U.S. I knew people involved in this scam. They were interested in one thing and one thing only - leveraging their books 40x, 80x, as much as they could to make loans so that they could pocket the upfront fees. It was everywhere, as people got giddy making money with no government oversight at all. Exactly the same thing has occurred throughout world history (1700s, 1800s, 1900s) - and they always led to bank runs until this time, thanks to government intervention.



You have to be kidding. They just walked away from them by the tens of thousands. They don't care. Neither do the bankers who already pocketed their fees. Those who took out the bogus loans just lived rent free for a few years and then left their homes to rot. The bankers stuffed their personal accounts with their bonuses. That is the free market at work! And everyone who owns a home, had theirs devalued because of all the vacant homes that surround them. All this directly caused by bankers and financial institutions who leveraged their books over 40X.




Yep, and then there is a run on all of the banks and the economy collapses. Nice idea. But we already tried that experiment out in 1929. I believe the Republican Hoover was in charge of that disaster.





The last 20 years was about as laissey-faire as you can get. The money institutions ran wild and did practically everything they wanted with the money that was entrusted to them. They bankrupted almost every large manufacturing and financial institution while the top tier pocketed all of the money they could get a hold of. Look at the gigantic amount of wealth accumulated by the top 1% in the last 20 years. The highest percentage of GDP ever!

The experiment ended as expected. The rich go richer (obscenely so) and the poor really got poor, and the middle class has to pony up because no one wants to throw the bankers in jail and get their money out of the Swiss bank accounts. Madoff is in jail but the Goldman scoundrels still out in the wild.

Rich

I'm not ideologically tied to the results of this debate, but I'll gladly play Devil's advocate. How do you explain the 1921 depression, which was basically handled by Commerce Secretary Hoover? A massive depression was turned around in 22 months with a largely hands-off policy, and led directly into the Roaring '20's. The 1929 depression, on the other hand, lasted until WW2 began, under the massive GOV intervention of Roosevelt.
 

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