1
   

The Speed of Time.

 
 
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 07:58 am
@Steerpike,
Steerpike wrote:
Time is a non-spatial dimension. Speed is a measurement of distance/time. The question of speed of time then is circular. However, if viewed as a dimension, then one can inquire as to "quantity" or "amount."

Time did have a beginning, it is not infinite in backwards progression. As it is also a dimension, it may not have infinite forward progression.

If there is sufficient mass to close the universe, then the temporal dimension will contract with the spatial dimensions when the expanding universe stops expanding and starts to collapse in on itself. It may even go back to zero as it was at the point of Big Bang.

If the universe, however, lacks sufficient mass to halt and reverse the expansion, then time may expand with it indefinitely. If one wants to know the "speed of time" or "quantity or amount" of time, then it would be related to the expansion of the universe.


I see far too many assumptions in your post.

First of all, if time is a dimension then we are not in a 3 dimensional reality but a 4 dimensional reality as we interact with time. So this would redifine how we see our own dimension.

Can you show me some evidence that time has a starting point? I would like to see it. If time is a dimension then it has no start or end. it is something that has always been and something that always will be.

I hear the big bang thrown around a lot here but I have STILL yet to see evidence of it.
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 08:00 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Im a simple man with little time...for the speed of light, as i told someone else, light is not the fastest thing we know so is time slower than atomic communication??I live by the bodily clock the rythms of nature..i need time to tell me when i should do something or not do it..Ive tried the tricks with time but my reality is here and now ...what happens to time for other people its their time not mine...


Then we agree. Time is entirely due to perception. I think we have agreed from the start with slightly different angles on the same idea.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 08:01 am
@Steerpike,
Steerpike wrote:
Time is a non-spatial dimension. Speed is a measurement of distance/time. The question of speed of time then is circular. However, if viewed as a dimension, then one can inquire as to "quantity" or "amount."

Time did have a beginning, it is not infinite in backwards progression. As it is also a dimension, it may not have infinite forward progression.

If there is sufficient mass to close the universe, then the temporal dimension will contract with the spatial dimensions when the expanding universe stops expanding and starts to collapse in on itself. It may even go back to zero as it was at the point of Big Bang.

If the universe, however, lacks sufficient mass to halt and reverse the expansion, then time may expand with it indefinitely. If one wants to know the "speed of time" or "quantity or amount" of time, then it would be related to the expansion of the universe.
In a more philosophical attitude, future time does not exist..infinity stops here.
0 Replies
 
Steerpike
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 08:17 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
I see far too many assumptions in your post.

First of all, if time is a dimension then we are not in a 3 dimensional reality but a 4 dimensional reality as we interact with time. So this would redifine how we see our own dimension.


There may be more dimensions than that. If Calabi-Yau (from String Theory) is scientifically confirmed, then the number of dimensions could rise to 11 (or more).

Icon wrote:

Can you show me some evidence that time has a starting point? I would like to see it. If time is a dimension then it has no start or end. it is something that has always been and something that always will be.


Run the expansion of the Universe backwards and it reaches a starting point. Time is not just a dimension. It is a non-spatial dimension. "Always been" and "always will be" assume the existence of time. You are question begging. :whip:

Icon wrote:

I hear the big bang thrown around a lot here but I have STILL yet to see evidence of it.


Then you may not be looking for it. The scientific community has accumulated a large body of evidence to support the Big Bang. Very Happy
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 08:42 am
@Aristoddler,
Or 23 Or 49... Yeah yeah yeah. Do you believe EVERYTHING you read is just the things that make you feel intellectual?

Running the expansion of the universe backwards only runs the expansion of particles backwards. Did length width and height not exist before the big bang either?
Of course they did. Nothing can expand without space to do so. Not to mention that the big bang had to occur. In order for an event to occur it must occur at a specific time with a cushion of time before and after it. Without those, time holds no value and does not exist. So time either always was or never has been.

As far as evidence for the big bang... An expanding universe and large quantities of energy do not suffice to tell me that the big bang actually occured. The diaphragmic universe which expands then contracts is rather silly. Besides, do you "believe" that this is the first cycle of the universe? I suppose you also believe us to be the only sentient life bearing planet... or perhaps that science is "true"
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 08:52 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
Or 23 Or 49... Yeah yeah yeah. Do you believe EVERYTHING you read is just the things that make you feel intellectual?

Running the expansion of the universe backwards only runs the expansion of particles backwards. Did length width and height not exist before the big bang either?
Of course they did. Nothing can expand without space to do so. Not to mention that the big bang had to occur. In order for an event to occur it must occur at a specific time with a cushion of time before and after it. Without those, time holds no value and does not exist. So time either always was or never has been.

As far as evidence for the big bang... An expanding universe and large quantities of energy do not suffice to tell me that the big bang actually occured. The diaphragmic universe which expands then contracts is rather silly. Besides, do you "believe" that this is the first cycle of the universe? I suppose you also believe us to be the only sentient life bearing planet... or perhaps that science is "true"
We can believe what cosmologists tell us or we can be obstinate...if you choose not to believe the experts and that the BB was the start of everthing..so be it but how can we discuss with you something we believe happened and you think is rubbish...cosmologists by the way do believe life is possible elsewhere in the universe...There are many theories out there but 99% of the experts still believe in the BB..
0 Replies
 
Steerpike
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:01 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
Running the expansion of the universe backwards only runs the expansion of particles backwards. Did length width and height not exist before the big bang either? Of course they did.


Running the expansion backward also contracts spacetime. We have three extended spatial and one extended non-spatial dimension. It doesn't necessarily follow that all of the dimensions had to exist at the Big Bang. The extended dimensions would have expanded with the expansion of the Universe. While the universe would not have been infinitely dense (size =0 at Big Bang), it did not necessarily have all of the current dimensions.

Icon wrote:

Nothing can expand without space to do so. Not to mention that the big bang had to occur. In order for an event to occur it must occur at a specific time with a cushion of time before and after it. Without those, time holds no value and does not exist. So time either always was or never has been.


You are again being circular. The term "cushion of time before" is meaningless when referring to the beginning of time. Big Bang would be that beginning.
0 Replies
 
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:26 am
@Aristoddler,
So there was nothing and then there was something?

How does this make any sense at all? Nothing does not make something. It has never been that way and has never proven to be accurate. I wasn't talking about the beginning of time. You were. I was talking about the infinity of time.


@xris: I don't BELIEVE anything. Belief is a short cut. I intend to find out. Go all the way or don't bother going at all.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:42 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
So there was nothing and then there was something?

How does this make any sense at all? Nothing does not make something. It has never been that way and has never proven to be accurate. I wasn't talking about the beginning of time. You were. I was talking about the infinity of time.


@xris: I don't BELIEVE anything. Belief is a short cut. I intend to find out. Go all the way or don't bother going at all.
We have to believe in certainties tillwe learn differently otherwise we cant comment on anything..The experts tell me there is no evidence of a before the big bang..you can imagine no time but not nothing ..how is that? It is stated that we do need a cause to have an event and it is always the case but the BB is the one event without a known cause..if we can see no cause or no evidence of a previous universe...you tell me what we should assume by logical deduction..If there is no matter in this place how do you describe a void with no matter no occurences no movement no light no time nothing...what is it ? you need matter no matter how far apart it is to measure the emptiness ...there is stone and another stone two feet apart we measure the space they occupy but if you have absolutely nothing how do measure the space between nothings???
BaCaRdi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:48 am
@xris,
atomic communication<--Well if it where at the speed of light..We wouldn't know..cause we can't measure it:(

Is everyone on the same clock?

Lets take a ride via Einstein again;

I get in a ship capable of light speed. You stay home, my trip took 2 seconds yet when I return to your time, your now 85 years old! Man time is Relative after all;)

-BaC


xris wrote:
Im a simple man with little time...for the speed of light, as i told someone else, light is not the fastest thing we know so is time slower than atomic communication??I live by the bodily clock the rythms of nature..i need time to tell me when i should do something or not do it..Ive tried the tricks with time but my reality is here and now ...what happens to time for other people its their time not mine...
0 Replies
 
Anthrobus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:49 am
@Aristoddler,
There is much much more out there which our minds cannot even fathom. Entirely new planes of existence, new physics, new knowledge which is constantly being created and destroyed...If, in fact, our minds cannot even fathom or perceive : how then could you know, that just such as that exists : you can't. The Cosmos is not infinite, never was, never is, and never will be..it is at all time finite...
BaCaRdi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:51 am
@xris,
Well that is not totally true...
'Some' experts say there was no big-bang.

Everything seems to fit such..Except for the horizon issue.
What does that mean..Well to everyone it's something different.

Yes you must free your bounds;)

-BaC

xris wrote:
We have to believe in certainties tillwe learn differently otherwise we cant comment on anything..The experts tell me there is no evidence of a before the big bang..you can imagine no time but not nothing ..how is that? It is stated that we do need a cause to have an event and it is always the case but the BB is the one event without a known cause..if we can see no cause or no evidence of a previous universe...you tell me what we should assume by logical deduction..If there is no matter in this place how do you describe a void with no matter no occurences no movement no light no time nothing...what is it ? you need matter no matter how far apart it is to measure the emptiness ...there is stone and another stone two feet apart we measure the space they occupy but if you have absolutely nothing how do measure the space between nothings???
0 Replies
 
BaCaRdi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:53 am
@Anthrobus,
Are you speaking of your mind..or mine?..hehe

OOHH I can perceive it all right;)

-BaC
Anthrobus wrote:
There is much much more out there which our minds cannot even fathom. Entirely new planes of existence, new physics, new knowledge which is constantly being created and destroyed...If, in fact, our minds cannot even fathom or perceive : how then could you know, that just such as that exists : you can't. The Cosmos is not infinite, never was, never is, and never will be..it is at all time finite...
0 Replies
 
BaCaRdi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:55 am
@Steerpike,
Yes, please continue my friend;)

String theory doesn't show how the singularity was formed..

There is however, one such theory which did just that!

-BaC


Steerpike wrote:
There may be more dimensions than that. If Calabi-Yau (from String Theory) is scientifically confirmed, then the number of dimensions could rise to 11 (or more).



Run the expansion of the Universe backwards and it reaches a starting point. Time is not just a dimension. It is a non-spatial dimension. "Always been" and "always will be" assume the existence of time. You are question begging. :whip:



Then you may not be looking for it. The scientific community has accumulated a large body of evidence to support the Big Bang. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:55 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
We have to believe in certainties tillwe learn differently otherwise we cant comment on anything..The experts tell me there is no evidence of a before the big bang..you can imagine no time but not nothing ..how is that? It is stated that we do need a cause to have an event and it is always the case but the BB is the one event without a known cause..if we can see no cause or no evidence of a previous universe...you tell me what we should assume by logical deduction..If there is no matter in this place how do you describe a void with no matter no occurences no movement no light no time nothing...what is it ? you need matter no matter how far apart it is to measure the emptiness ...there is stone and another stone two feet apart we measure the space they occupy but if you have absolutely nothing how do measure the space between nothings???


We have never seen something created from nothing which, by our wonderful ability to reason, would suggest that there was definately SOMETHING before the big bang. We just don't know what it was.

A void without light, matter movement, occurances, or time is still a void. An object. Nothing is something I can imagine quite well actually. Though I do not believe in nothing. There is always SOMETHING. The lack of evidence is not the lack of possibility. It is merely the lack of the ability to determine it. I don't need to believe in something to see it as possible.

I don't need to believe the sun will not rise tomorrow to see it as a possibility.

Now, let me straighten up one thing. I do not think that time is anything more than a perception. However, if time IS more than a perception then it must be infinite. If it is not then it is not something beyond the human mind. The universe does not work in time. It does not have that limit. Thus, anything intrinsic to the universe MUST be infinite. Is it so hard to imagine that the universe works on a cycle and that this is not the first time around?
Anthrobus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:58 am
@Aristoddler,
Without PERCEPTION there is NOTHING...
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:58 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
We have never seen something created from nothing which, by our wonderful ability to reason, would suggest that there was definately SOMETHING before the big bang. We just don't know what it was.

A void without light, matter movement, occurances, or time is still a void. An object. Nothing is something I can imagine quite well actually. Though I do not believe in nothing. There is always SOMETHING. The lack of evidence is not the lack of possibility. It is merely the lack of the ability to determine it. I don't need to believe in something to see it as possible.

I don't need to believe the sun will not rise tomorrow to see it as a possibility.

Now, let me straighten up one thing. I do not think that time is anything more than a perception. However, if time IS more than a perception then it must be infinite. If it is not then it is not something beyond the human mind. The universe does not work in time. It does not have that limit. Thus, anything intrinsic to the universe MUST be infinite. Is it so hard to imagine that the universe works on a cycle and that this is not the first time around?
So how do measure a void?
Anthrobus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 10:01 am
@Aristoddler,
no infinite, never can be...
0 Replies
 
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 10:03 am
@Anthrobus,
Anthrobus wrote:
There is much much more out there which our minds cannot even fathom. Entirely new planes of existence, new physics, new knowledge which is constantly being created and destroyed...If, in fact, our minds cannot even fathom or perceive : how then could you know, that just such as that exists : you can't. The Cosmos is not infinite, never was, never is, and never will be..it is at all time finite...


Have we ever seen matter destroyed or created? NO

This leads us to Two conclusions.


1: There is a finite amount of matter in the universe.

2: Matter is inifite. That which cannot be destroyed or created is infinite.

Besides, I cannot fathom or percieve the things which I cannot. But the things that I can are things such as the conversation at hand. I was merely showing that we cannot KNOW anything. We can only perceive it in our way.


@ xris: I don't. I can't. Inifinity has no measurements adequate. That which never ends cannot be measured.
0 Replies
 
BaCaRdi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2008 10:03 am
@xris,
You know...I don't fall for those traps.....Sorry;)
That would be another 30 posts and theories..

We are unable to measure something that is of the creator, at this time...hehe

-BaC
xris wrote:
So how do measure a void?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
Paradigm shifts - Question by Cyracuz
 
  1. Forums
  2. » The Speed of Time.
  3. » Page 7
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 04/23/2024 at 09:05:42