The INS in action

Brown
Based upon todays morality and logic the answer would be of course I would have disobeyed the law. However, what I would have done in 1850 I can not truly say and neither can any one else. The problem is that too often we look at the actions of yesteryear through today's let's call it eyes.

I guess I just look at the actions of today with tomorrow's eyes.

Well said, e.

Brown
Your crystal ball must be working mine is broken. While you are looking see what will happen if the Christian Coalition, Religious Right or whatever banner they happen to be flying at the time captures the tools of government. i.e. USCC, Congress,presidency?

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I am surprised he did not ask for food stamps, housing, Medicaid and welfare while he was at it. Someone should explain the word illegal to him.

Someone should explain the phrase de facto to au.

Going back to the main topic.

The INS has been known for a long period of time for selective enforcement. Being a Californian I have seen how the INS would pretend to be protecting the border near Tijuana but really it is a farce. One vehicle patrolling a long section of the border. As his vehicle goes towards the east, about 100 Mexican jumps over on the west and vice versa. It is a fun cat and mouse game. We used to watch them near a hill on the US side. They never really enforced the control because California needs those Mexicans to work in the farms and vineyards. A job that nobody wants anyway.
Ronald Reagan did the right thing when he gave amnesty and legalized many of these Mexican workers. If there is a need of America for certain workers they should open that work category through legal immigration. Then everything will be above board. They have been recruiting nurses in the Philippines and doctors fro India because it is declared that it is in dire need. Why can't we officially declared that there is a shortage of janitors and farmworkers so these Mexicans can be legalized. Again, the US is using selective immigration policy contrary to what is inscribed at the statue of liberty.

That is of course the answer, legal immigration. First because we can control who enters the country. Second because as legal immigrants they cannot be exploited and third they will pay for the services through taxation if any. If you noted those picked up in the Walmart raids satisfied none of the criteria.. In addition besides not being Mexicans in most instances they were filling jobs that would be taken by American citizens at less than market wages. Not only in many instances do they take jobs at American citizens would but they undercut the American worker by that practice.

The open borders idea sounds like a good thing for the illegal until you consider who really benefits. A company who hires illegals takes the risk of being caught and pays for it by not paying the illegal.
I know, ebrown-p, you wouldn't do that in your small business just to save some cash flow, but large companies do it all the time.
Corporations don't object to the masses of people slipping over the border because the numbers end up in their favor, ie: more people looking for the bottom jobs means less pressure to raise wages.
The idea that no one wants the job anyway is incomplete, no one wants the job at it's current wage. If there were fewer applicants for the jobs the company would have to up the ante to attract workers to take the jobs. With sufficient illegals on hand they don't have to anything expect say "Here take what you can get."
To say, well, the illegals are grateful for the opportunty to make a new life indicates a blindness to what that new life is like. Ask the men who worked seven days a week, not because they wanted to, but because they were told there were ten waiting to work the hours for less money. This doesn't sound like America unless it's the America depicted in Sinclair's The Jungle.
We should use our crystal balls to look backwards every so often and try to see if there really has been any change.

Joe

Admire your writing, Joe, and welcome the occasional chance to agree.

Thank you, Roger. You're down there in New Mexico, from your perspective, what's the situation there now with regards to illegals?

Tell us and I'll reply with a little report on the conditions here in New York City.

Central Ohio has turned so Hispanic, that you can't go anywhere without seeing Mexicans and Central and South Americans working here. Given that they find work quickly, and seem to have a good retention rate (you see the same one's in a job, week after week, like the manager of the gas station i use, who has been there for over a year now), and given that local American bums complain about a lack of work in a lively job market, i say we could do well to get more of them.

Setanta
I would ask. How many are documented? Do they pay taxes? Are they commanding a realistic wage? I have seen them shape up in NY and work for whatever they are offered off the books. It appears to me that it is slavery 2003 style.

I am speaking of employees of national and regional chains--gas stations, fast food, convenience stores. It is highly unlikely that such people could get employment, and espeically reach management positions, undocumented. When i see them working construction, for example, i have many of those same suspicions. But i was referring to the people who live in my apartment complex, the people who serve me at fast food joints, the people who work at the gas station--and have done so long enough to be "out of season" in terms of the old familiar migrants.

Setanta: I have never seen you make such a naive remark before, you are kidding?

Setanta
The problem is not with legal or documented immigrants. It is the 13 million illegal aliens and those continuing to flood the nation that needs being controlled. If we are not going to control the flow we might just as well get rid of the INS and save the money for other pork barrel activities. Yes, if they are not allowed to do their job than the job is basically a make work position.

JN, no i'm not kidding. Ohio has a new hire reporting program, and they enforce it strictly. The businesses to which i refer will have to account for their payroll, and if they were employing more than half their work force illegally (half of more of the employees in the types of places i've mentioned are now foreigners here, usually Hispanics), the state would be all over them, as the country boys say, "like ugly on a ape." The new hire reporting program gives you just ten days to report your new hires, and they are empowered to assess fines even if you report, but report late. It was originally designed to assure collection of child support payments, and still functions that way--but as you might well imagine, every other agency in town (Columbus is the state capital) is all over the info too.

Not naive, JN, just very well informed about how this sort of thing works in Ohio. Construction companies and agricultural employers might get away with it, but not anybody employing long term.

Brother, have I got news for you.

The three that you mention are the MOST likely to have undocumented workers on staff. Here's how it works. I buy a franchise from let's say, the Quikki -Stop corporation. I'm a nice guy so I let you, my brother's cousin's son, buy a piece of it. Actually, it's more like I sub-let to you. You handle everything, the buying stock, the merchandising and the hiring and the firing. I own the place, but you are the front man. Or you can hire someone else or even sub-sub-let the place, who cares? There's nothing on paper because that's the way our people have done business for generations. Good so far. But what about all those pesky government types? No sweat, GI. That's why god made Social Security Cards and he didn't make it a picture ID.
We gotta a list of employees here, three hundred thirty five in all, all have SS cards. Okay? Now we got Numesio Perez here. Nice guy too, works the night shift for two years but now he's gotta go. Either's he gotta go on his own or he's gotta go cuz we want him to go. So?
He goes and we get a new guy. Do we report the hire? What hire? What do mean what hire? What's the new guy's name? Oh, him? That's Numesio Perez. Funny, I thought he was taller. No, he wasn't, isn't.

You can rotate a couple of thousand people through six or seven stores in a two year period. You report any real hires, of course. What are you nuts? Of course, you report some hires, but the rest, the truckers, the loaders, the stockers, the bottom bunch never change.

What if Mr. Perez wants to come back after he gets back if he gets back?
So, now he's Miquel Dominques, just make sure he wears a clean shirt.

And all the Quikkie-Stop Corporation cares about is if your profit margins are within spec. Oh, yeah, make sure you cash your corporation's generated checks for your employees, that way they can't see that you are with-holding money for their health plan that doesn't exist. A little extra just for you.

Have a nice day.

I'm in Farmington, Joe, in the northwest corner of the state. The population is almost exactly divided between between Anglo, Hispanic, and Native American. Our own crews are approximately 3/4 Hispanic, followed by Anglo, and finally, Native American. Getting beyond that is difficult. The INS Form I-9 is normally completed with a combination of Social Security Card and Driver License, one identifying the worker, and the other giving permission to work in the US. There are other acceptable combinations. If they present a document that meets the requirements of column A, such as US passport or resident alien card, that is all that is required. Unlikely as it seems, your employer is not permitted to demand the presentation of the Social Security card if the other requirements of the I-9 are otherwise met. Sounds weird, but I've been through this one with SSA.

In other words, I don't really know the answer to your question. I assume, but don't know, that we have some percentage of illegals amongst the population.

The New Hire reporting form is probably not permitted to be used by the INS. I don't know this, but I'm comfortable with the guess. Is specifically used by the states as an aid in collecting child support and I doubt if the information is verified except for checking with a delinquency list.


I do bookkeeping for an oilfield service company and see all the documents. They look good, and the INS does not encourage us to go beyond that. This is not a sweatshop region, by the way. The guys in the field usually end up grossing 45,000.00 to 55,000.00/year, though neither you nor I would likely put up with the hours or the labor.

Wish I could have answered the question.

Based on the reports I have seen there are in the neighborhood of 13 million undocumented aliens living and working in the US. The operative word is working. I would ask how is that possible in an environment where it is illegal to hire them? The answer is obvious.