The INS in action

Jespah, you didn't answer my question.

Would you feel the same obligation to report a homsexual if you were in a state with anti-sodomy laws? ... and would you feel the same indignation if they he wasn't prosecuted?

These are yes or no questions.

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Jespah will agree. The protection given under our laws is guaranteed. You do not lose your constitutional and legal protections even when you have broken a law.

Well, conviction at the felony can indeed cost you certain constitutional rights, if not protections.

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interesting question Roger, we have an issue here with a county clerk handing out literature at his county office of a religious nature stating that good christian citizens have a moral obligation to disregard legal proceedings if it contradicts religious teachings. Its my understanding that he is using his elected office to suggest that (his)religion over-rides our legal system.

It is an interesting question, dys. There are many laws being ignored, even some that would be cheap and easy to prosecute. Abuse of public office should not be one of them. By the way, are you talking about a clerk that shuffles paper, or THE County Clerk or Court Clerk. String him up and you'll get no complaint from me.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Jespah, you didn't answer my question.

Would you feel the same obligation to report a homsexual if you were in a state with anti-sodomy laws? ... and would you feel the same indignation if they he wasn't prosecuted?

These are yes or no questions.

yes and yes

Sorry if that suddenly marks me as a horrible person. I don't love anti-sodomy laws. I think they're stupid and invasive. But they're still the law in some areas. Like I said before, the proper channel for changing the law is working with the Legislature. Or, if you like, see if it can be overturned as being unconsititutional.

And I want to make one thing clear. I am an attorney. I am under certain obligations that other citizens aren't under. I'm sworn to uphold the law. So are cops. And they, too, are supposed to enforce all laws, even the ones they think are dumb or wrong.

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Then Jespah, I apologize.

I guess was wrong in my assumption that lawyers don't have ethics.

Of course I agree that we should change these stupid or inhumane laws through the legislative process. But this does I will not break them in the meantime, especially when - as in the case of immigration laws- they are inconsistant, unenforceable and often inhumane.

For that matter, I would not feel guilty if, for example, I had had relations with my wife before we were married.

I would not feel bad if were to drive 70 mph with the rest of traffic on Rte 2 in Concord Ma where there is a 45mph posted speed limit. In this case following the law would be dangerous and wreckless.

I just took a workshop for small business owners given by an accountant and a lawyer.

In this workshop they mentioned that there is a law in Massachusetts that says that you must declare all merchandise that you purchase in a state that does not have a tax. (we are next to tax-free NH for example).

The accountant passed out this form and said, "by law I can not tell you to break the law and I am obligated to tell you that you *should* fill it out faithfully -- and I am sure the state get's two or three of these every year.... But hypothetically speaking anyone who fills this out would be an idiot."

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Brown

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I would not feel bad if were to drive 70 mph with the rest of traffic on Rte 2 in Concord Ma where there is a 45mph posted speed limit. In this case following the law would be dangerous and reckless.

If you got caught and were given a ticket. Would you tell the cop that you did not obey it because the law was stupid. I wonder if that would work?

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In this workshop they mentioned that there is a law in Massachusetts that says that you must declare all merchandise that you purchase in a state that does not have a tax. (we are next to tax-free NH for example).

Unenforceable. However, if they could catch you and slapped a fine on you, what would your defense be.

In reality if you are caught breaking the law, any law, the state has the right to punish you. The defense can never be I don't agree with the law. In addition ignorance of the law is not a valid defense either.

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Au,

I sure would contest a ticket on the grounds that if some idiot were to go the speed limit on Rte 2 he would be considered reckless by all and would probably cause an accident. I would have the right to appeal, and would do so in a second.

Same with this tax thing. I would appeal that on the grounds that the tax is unfairly applied.

I am sure I could find a good defense attorney to defend me - any suggestions Jespah? (although I would prefer an attorney who is a little less ethical...)

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Brown
I am sure a good defense lawyer would tell you to stop whistling in the dark.

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I have never known a lawyer to turn away a paying client... and my definition of a good defense lawyer is one who can win the case for me.

Even criminals deserve representation by an atorney, but this is a bit of topic...

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ebrown_p
You wouldn't need not a good lawyer what you would need is a magician.

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Au, Let's get back to the topic.

I would like to let you know I have more more of an interest in this topic than usual. This is more than just another philosophical debate.

In real life I have very close ties with undocumented immigrants. One of my close friends came across the border with two young kids and has been living here for years. She works and pays taxes. Her kids go to school and play football.

More than that she has become a part of our community. She works hard cleaning houses and many citizens choose to use her services. People have in general been very generous and she makes a decent living wage.

Your house metaphor works. The fact is that we (i.e. American citizens) want her here. She adds to our communiy and she does some of the hard work that not many Americans want.

Does the government have the right to say that we can't invite people into our house? Does the government have the right to tell me who I can accept in my community?

Immigrants like this are forced to be "illegal". Most of them have real ties here. Are you saying that you would choose to follow the law if this would mean incredible hardship for your kids and poverty for your family?

These Immigrants are here becuase American citizens want them to be here. In real life, there are undocumented immigrants that I care about and support.

Immigration laws are arbritary and inhumane. I choose to defy them. If this makes me a criminal, so be it.

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ebrown_p
I will answer this with logic not emotion. The woman came here without an invite and in a criminal manner. She lived a clean life and she and her family became part of the community. Therefore under your rules she should be allowed to stay. Let me give you another scenario. Someone commits murder when he is say 25 and melts back into the community. He lives a scrupulously clean life and becomes a prominent member of the community. After 20 years he is caught. Should he be prosecuted for the crime or based on the 20 years of good citizenship be absolved of it ? What is your opinion? And before you answer I agree there is a matter of degree of criminality. However, both cases have the same basic elements.

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Au,

Murder and an immigration offense are very different. It is not just a matter of degree of criminality.

There are three reasons that I would want the murderer to be punished in this case:
1) With murder there is a victim.
2) Murder causes a definite harm to society.
3) Murder is universally seen as immoral.

None of these things are true with my friends immigration case.

There was no victim to her "crime". There are many Americans who are glad that she is here. And many of us don't feel like given her situation, what she did should even be a crime.

Your argument is logically flawed....

... but even so it doesn't hurt to have a heart.

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Apples and oranges...

Many upstanding citizens entered the borders in nefarious ways. Sadly this is the only option to many seeking a better life.

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Brown
Need I say I disagree? Crime is crime and the victim in each case are the laws of the US. We cannot pick and choose. Laws as far as I know have no emotions. Now do I feel for the lady of course I do who wouldn't at this juncture. But does that make it right. There was talk some time ago about amnesty. The problem there is that it just encourages more illegal immigration. It also rewards criminality. If you can hide from the INS long enough to get established we will allow you to stay. What does that say to you?

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my ex father-in-law, an escaping Jew from central europe during WW II, when Jews were not welcome into the US came to Cuba from Belgium and then "illegally" entered the US into Florida. Sometime after the end of WW II US policy changed and he was granted citizenship. What he had orgininally done was indeed illegal by the law of the time but I would hardly consider him to have been criminal subject to deportation.

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Dys
Had the policy not been changed he would have been deported.

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au1929 wrote:

Brown
Need I say I disagree? Crime is crime and the victim in each case are the laws of the US. We cannot pick and choose. Laws as far as I know have no emotions. Now do I feel for the lady of course I do who wouldn't at this juncture. But does that make it right. There was talk some time ago about amnesty. The problem there is that it just encourages more illegal immigration. It also rewards criminality. If you can hide from the INS long enough to get established we will allow you to stay. What does that say to you?

I don't think this position is supportable.

You can argue specifics, but saying that there is never an excuse to break a law is extreme.

Would you, for example, have sent people back to slavery and beatings in the 1860's?

People are more important than laws.

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Illegally in the U.S., and Never a Day Off at Wal-Mart
By STEVEN GREENHOUSE
A 21-state raid exposed hundreds of illegal immigrants
working for subcontractors that clean Wal-Mart stores
across the nation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/national/05WALM.html?th

What do you think will happen to the non-Hispanics caught in the web?

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Brown
To say the position is unsuportable is not an argument it is an opinion. In any event I guess we have reached the end of the road in this discussion. It's on to bigger and better things for this Don Quixote

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Au, I retract my statement about your argument being unsupportable.

I would like you to answer my question.

In the 1850's Federal law required that escaped slaves be returned back to their masters. It seems that using your logic you would say that they should be sent back to slavery.

Yet many Americans broke the law to protect lives and freedom.

Would you support or oppose this?

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The INS in action

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