May I see your papers, citizen?

@ebrown p,

Quote:

OK, as long as thay are mixed and proud SOUTH of the Border, down Mexico way.
Let them boast all thay want.

ebrown p wrote:

South of WHICH border?

There are many people of Mexican descent who are as much American citizens as you are.
Some US citizens living in Arizona had Mexican great-grandparents even though their family never moved.

I 'm discussing illegal aliens.
I dunno what u r discussing.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

I thought we were talking about Mexicans.

0 Replies

@ebrown p,

Did you see Skip Gates' latest series on American Faces? One of his subjects was actress Eva Longoria. Her family is proud of its Mexican descent but they were residents of Texas before it was Texas.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Sorry, David, the science is real. Just because you disdain it, does not mean it is lacking value or reality. Why do you hate science so? Why do you insist that there are human races when there are not?

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

This is a link to the work that Dr. Spencer Wells has done for National Geographic: https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html

This is a notice of Dr. Wells appearance at TED:

http://www.tedafrica.org/speakers/spencer_wells.html

And here is Princeton University Press' interview with Wells:

http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i7442.html

Spencer Wells is just one of many scientists whose work demonstrates the myth of human races.

Your denial of science in the name of race is closer to anything Hitler ordered than my citation of established scientific work is.

Why is it beneficial to you to promote separate races?

0 Replies

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Let's just issue a national ID card while we're at it, right?

This gets to a topic that has always mystified me. Why are Americans making such a fuzz about a national ID card? When I was living in Germany, I had to carry one since my 18th birthday. My personal freedom has not suffered the slightest infringement because of it. Why are Americans so terrified of them?

2 Replies

@Thomas,

We have to carry IDs anyway. Why not save money by centralising it.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
Let's just issue a national ID card while we're at it, right?

This gets to a topic that has always mystified me. Why are Americans making such a fuzz about a national ID card? When I was living in Germany, I had to carry one since my 18th birthday. My personal freedom has not suffered the slightest infringement because of it. Why are Americans so terrified of them?

Death panels!
Tyranny of the Government!
Microchips!
Government's gonna take your guns!
Forced Abortions!
Forcing our kids to be Gay!

I don't know why anyone is surprised by this attitude. It is a product of the same anti-Federal government tropes that the Right Wing has been throwing around forever. A huge percentage of our country actually believes the tripe that they throw out. They really internalize it.

When you've been brought up on the idea that the Federal government can provide no benefits, only taxation and intrusions into your life, the idea of a 'national ID card' is terrifying.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Joe Nation,

Joe Nation wrote:

Btw: If this was the law in NYC, I don't have anything that I carry on me which proves my legality in the country. I have a driver's license, so? Voter registration card, SO? Aetna Insurance Card, SO?
Where do any of them say "Born in the USA" ?

So, when the police stops you for speeding and they run your driver's license by the New York DMV's database, they will find an entry in your records that identifies you as a US citizen. At least that's my guess, based on my own experience in New Jersey. The DMV there did ask for my passport and my Green Card before they issued my driver's license.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Death panels!
Tyranny of the Government!
Microchips!
Government's gonna take your guns!
Forced Abortions!
Forcing our kids to be Gay!

I don't think that's a fair summary of DrewDad's politics, whose opposition to a national ID I was responding to.

0 Replies

@edgarblythe,

Exactly.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

...... based on my own experience in New Jersey. The DMV there did ask for my passport and my Green Card before they issued my driver's license.

But they DID ask you for a social security number? Sure they did. Only LEGAL residents of the US are issued a SS#.

In Massachusetts they actually want to see the original SS card, not just be given the number - and that was even though I was only exchanging my California license for a MA one, so obviously someone had done that check at least once before. NJ is no different.

1 Reply

@High Seas,

Yes, they asked for my Social Security card, too. (Not just the number.)

0 Replies

One more point that US citizens may not be aware of: We foreigners have always been obligated to carry our papers with us. When my Green Card arrived in the mail, it came with a letter informing me that I was legally required to always carry it, along with my passport. This is the price I have freely agreed to pay for coming to America in the first place. And so have all other legal aliens in the US.

This fact makes it hard for me to join the outrage of many correspondents I usually agree with. The state of Arizona isn't capriciously cooking up laws to harass Mexicans. It's simply enforcing terms of a deal that all legal aliens have already agreed to.

That's the letter of the law, anyway; its enforcement may be different. Arizona police may abuse their powers in applying the new law, in which case we should sue them. The abuses may become systematic, in which case we should have the Supreme Court strike down the law for being unconstitutional "as applied". But on its face, based on the law's text alone, I currently don't see how it rises to the level of an outrage.

2 Replies

@Thomas,

Intelligently put, as always.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

In the days when I still had a "green card" I actually was stopped while driving
from California into Arizona. The AZ officers asked me if I was a citizen and when I denied, the asked me for my alien resident card. I didn't have it with me
so I had to go with them to the station. Once there, they found me in the computer and confirmed my legal status. I did get a lecture from them that I always have to carry my green card with me in case I need to identify myself again. My driver license was not sufficient.

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

That's true. Legally it isn't sufficient. Practically, though, it doesn't seem to be much of an issue anymore. (I have been stopped and asked twice so far.) I suspect the difference lies in the timing of our experiences. You were probably stopped before police cars were equipped with wireless internet connections through which officers could run your driver's license directly. I was stopped after this upgrade.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Right! This was good 15 years ago.

0 Replies

I provided a link to the actual bill yesterday in error, as it was the bill drafted by the Arizona Senate. The bill signed into law by the governor which passed both houses is located here, and contains the following provision:

Quote:

A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:

1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL
IDENTIFICATION.
4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

(Apologies for the caps...copied and pasted from the pdf.)

1 Reply

@Irishk,

Thanks, Irishk! So now we can answer Joe Nation's question. His New York state driver's license would qualify under #4 if he were stopped in Arizona. If he were stopped in New York State, and if the law were adopted there as he assumed in his hypothetical, Joe's license would qualify under both #1 and #4. How outrageous is that? Not very, I submit.

3 Replies

May I see your papers, citizen?

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