Do you think the Pope should resign?

@ossobuco,

there is in the USA a noted distinction between religion and law. What the pope thinks, says or does is none of our concern. every state has child protection laws that are mandated to be in effect. any and all violations should be enforced by law enforcement/child protection.

5 Replies

@dyslexia,

dyslexia wrote:

there is in the USA a noted distinction between religion and law. What the pope thinks, says or does is none of our concern. every state has child protection laws that are mandated to be in effect. any and all violations should be enforced by law enforcement/child protection.

Interesting point. In the Milwaukee situation, the Catholic Church may be only partly to blame. Did the parents contact law enforcement?

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

Quote:

there is in the USA a noted distinction between religion and law. What the pope thinks, says or does is none of our concern. every state has child protection laws that are mandated to be in effect. any and all vibbolations should be enforced by law enforcement/child protection.

Nice in theory but for decades is did not work in that manner and only large scale civil judgments decades after the fact cause any change in the church willingness to shield these priests and force then to stop allowing them free range in harming children.

Or is it your position that the church did not in fact protected theses "gentlemen" from state laws?

0 Replies

@spendius,

Quote:

Are you an anarchist JT? We elect people to rule over us and if they say, as they sometimes do, that the public interest is more important that the principle under scrutiny here, we have to abide by that. The alternative is unthinkable.

No, we elect people to rule for us. There is a decided difference. That you don't know the difference says a lot about you and your thinking, if one wanted to call it that.

That you don't seem to know the difference between a ruse and reality also speaks volumes. It's duly noted that you're willing to accept this ruse.

In the particular case under discussion, it should also be noted that the Catholic Church, no church, makes any laws. They, like everyone else, have to abide by the laws of the land.

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

Quote:

What the pope thinks, says or does is none of our concern.

True. I've already said it. It only applies to the Catholics.

And I have asked how 200 boys were "molested" by one priest without people outside the church knowing about it. No answers forthcoming.

I've asked about the utility of the Catholic Church in respect of our relations with Africa and Eastern Europe. No answers forthcoming.

I don't know if it is true, it's a complex issue, but many commentators think that Pope John Paul II's visit to Poland in 1979 set in motion the freeing of Eastern Europe from communist dictatorships and the removal of the Berlin Wall. Some of those countries are in the alliance in Afghanistan and Iraq. And it has been proposed that a western defence missile shield be located on their territories and they have granted overflying rights for our wars. And "Ich bin ein Berliner" was spoken by a Catholic president.

Maybe the anti-Catholic invective is designed to reverse these acheivements and hand Africa over to the Taliban. The Vatican roof doesn't bristle with satellite dishes to pick up MTV.

1 Reply

@wandeljw,

Quote:

In the Milwaukee situation, the Catholic Church may be only partly to blame. Did the parents contact law enforcement?

I've seen a report, I've forgotten where, that the civil authorities had been informed and dropped the matter. With 200 boys involved over a lengthy period of time I can't imagine they were unaware of the situation.

0 Replies

@McTag,

The pope has been apologizing no end for a long time now - here's what he wrote to abuse victims in Ireland:

Quote:

....Those of you who were abused in residential institutions must have felt that there was no escape from your sufferings. It is understandable that you find it hard to forgive or be reconciled with the Church. In her name, I openly express the shame and remorse that we all feel. At the same time, I ask you not to lose hope. It is in the communion of the Church that we encounter the person of Jesus Christ, who was himself a victim of injustice and sin.....

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20100319_church-ireland_en.html

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

No, we elect people to rule for us. There is a decided difference. That you don't know the difference says a lot about you and your thinking, if one wanted to call it that.

That's plain ridiculous JT. The Healthcare Bill has been vehemently opposed by a significant section of the population. That section must think they are being ruled over rather being ruled for. And similarly with any legislation which has opposition.

You sound like you favour daily referenda as opinions change. We elect people to rule over us. If we elected them to rule for us we would end up as a nation of Sancho Panchas with soft beds, pots of ale, voluptuous women and no work.

If I can be deemed to have been granted permission to sink to your level of debate I will say that you not knowing the difference says a lot about your thinking, if one wanted to call it that.

As does your little speech telling us all what we already know. Apart from polygamy in Utah. Prostitution in Nevada. Gambling in Atlantic City. Varying ages of consent. Which law are you talking about? You're a bit diffuse.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Quote:

The Healthcare Bill has been vehemently opposed by a significant section of the population. That section must think they are being ruled over rather being ruled for. And similarly with any legislation which has opposition

.

And pass by congress and a president that was elected under the clear stand that they would pass such a law.

The people who do not wish the billl was on a lossing end of a normal disagreement under our system and nothing more or less.

0 Replies

@dyslexia,

dyslexia wrote:

there is in the USA a noted distinction between religion and law. What the pope thinks, says or does is none of our concern. every state has child protection laws that are mandated to be in effect. any and all violations should be enforced by law enforcement/child protection.

I agree with that, dys, or at least that that is of key significance, or should be, re child protection here. That it hasn't panned out over all these years points in a lot of directions re protection of institutions, as well as personal and family interested elements of shame.

I feel free to be concerned other than that, though, because of personal history interest re the church, particularly re J. Ratzinger. You have your comments re Plato and Aristotle, I have mine with him.

0 Replies

Why are people concentrating on criminal priests after the sexual abuse when, perhaps, they should ask the more important question? Why do some men who have pedifile urges become priests? I think it's because they believe in the church's claim that God can cure them through the priesthood. Others may believe the Church can cure them of homosexuality. None of these beliefs are true.

I think the Church should require psychiatic examination to discover pedifilia instincts before they admit priests to the Church. That might do more to protect children from their abuse.

BBB

3 Replies

BBB wrote:

Why do some men who have pedifile urges become priests?

While we are at wild guesses, maybe it's because they think they can fulfill them and get away with it...

0 Replies

@BumbleBeeBoogie,

Quote:

pedifile urges become priests? I think it's because they believe in the church's claim that God can cure them through the priesthood. Others may believe the Church can cure them of homosexuality. None of these beliefs are true.

More likely they became priests because of the high social standing of that position, access to children by trusting parents, and until the last few years the known protection the church offer them.

0 Replies

@dyslexia,

Quote:

What the pope thinks, says or does is none of our concern. every state has child protection laws that are mandated to be in effect. any and all violations should be enforced by law enforcement/child protection.

When the present Pope was cardinal in charge of discipline of the clergy, what he effectively told his bishops was "If you have any cases of sexual molestation by priests, henceforward don't go to the local police, send the details to us here and we will deal with it centrally".

He tried to keep the lid on it, in a damage limitation exercise.
That was not moral, and (in most if not all cases I suppose) was illegal.
Immoral I suggest, because they didn't deal with it at all.
That's what the hoo-hah is about.

0 Replies

@spendius,

Quote:

And I have asked how 200 boys were "molested" by one priest without people outside the church knowing about it. No answers forthcoming.

The answer is obvious.
Read the victim's accounts.

1 Reply

@High Seas,

That apology put the Pope outside of it. We need to know if, as seems more than likely, he was inside it.

"I'm sorry my right fist socked you on the jaw. I feel your pain, and I have spoken most severely to it."

0 Replies

@McTag,

the 200 deaf boys were selected because, at that time,communication between deaf children and their families was very difficult. This, added to the fact that they were threatened and institutionalized, made awareness by anyone outside pretty remote

0 Replies

@BumbleBeeBoogie,

I have thought about this over the years, bbb, and I don't think it is that men with pedophile interests line up for the priesthood. Some may, but I don't think in any big numbers. I posit it happens as a result of the culture, who is available. (I admit I may be wrong).

I will surmise that homosexuals/bisexuals may have been attracted over the years to a route to respected place in society and a strata of like attuned folk, perhaps to some percentage of the priesthood. But first it was older brothers..

I don't think that is the major attraction of priesthood, but I don't know. Not within my perceived experience. A friend of my father's, for example, a high up submarine captain, signed up for the jesuits after the bikinin bomb tests.

Spirituality is open to all, and a culture of male dominance and sex with females being sinful may be enticing.
I do think the culture of the priesthood - now set in near concrete - fosters a lot of all this. Not much is said about abuse of girls by priests (in all this noise) but I will guess that happens too.

I have to add before edit is out that I don't mind homosexuals being priests. It's the stifled culture that curls.

0 Replies

Well, there is a catch to infallibility. The pope is only infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that is, from the papal throne. Don't rely on the pope to fill out your income tax or to do your kid's algebra homework.

That said, I am furious. While I hate the superstition of the church, I also thank the church for making me a liberal and for providing great intellectual stimulation as the world turned from the 1950s to the 1960s.

I applaud Sinead O'Connor for speaking up on behalf of all Irish people . . .some of whom are my distant cousins.

I think that Benedict . . . is that his name?. . .VII . . . is that his number? Ought to resign. There is no other way for the church to clean house.

I also think that the clergy ought to be allowed to marry, just as Orthodox priests marry and rabbis marry and Protestant ministers marry.

Leading a normal life will bring more men into the priesthood who are normal.

And while they are at it, the church needs to ordain women.

I have been talking to a friend from high school where we had a priest who was so obviously unbalanced that we knew it as naive (in my case) 14 year olds.

He was defrocked for his lust for little boys.

0 Replies

@McTag,

Technically, in the US, the Pope would be an accessory after the fact.

0 Replies

Do you think the Pope should resign?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know