Languages and Thought

rufio (Joined: 08 Oct 2003 Posts: 296) wrote:

In any case, I'm not going to answer here what can easily be looked up somewhere else.

Thanks! That's good to know.

Although

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Able2Know.com - Able2Know is a free knowledge exchange. This is a moderated site that counts on the expertise of volunteers to answer any questions you have.

:wink:

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McTag wrote:

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Why do Americans use the word dumb to mean stupid?

For the same reason that we use 'mad' when we mean 'angry'.
Actually dduck covered the real reasons quite well.

Mad is a fun word to look at, English speakers use it to mean 'crazy for' or 'loves' as in "Those big brimmed hats, she was just mad for them." but Americans never (or hardly) use 'mad' to mean 'deranged', they mean it to mean ''angrily upset." One night we were doing a ten second news lead-in, one of those "Rocks are falling the sky, film at eleven on NewsEight things, and the newscaster read this:

"Congress refuses to budge on taxes, and the President is mad."

I asked him later if he intended to cover the two stories, but he still didn't get it. Rolling Eyes

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Ha!

rufio, I'll start with the numerous comparitive studies of deaf children with hearing parents compared to deaf children with deaf parents. Deaf children with deaf parents (deaf of deaf), that is, deaf children who were exposed to language (ASL) from the get-go, are consistently and significantly well ahead on all cognitive and language measurements than those who were not so exposed. It's very pronounced.

Deaf-of-deaf make up about 10% of the deaf population.

In terms of recognizing mental deficiency in specific people, we don't have time machines and alternate universes to test how much smarter someone would have been if they had been exposed to language earlier. But there are patterns, consistent areas of difficulty, etc. I can always tell after interacting with someone for a while if they are deaf-of-deaf, had hearing parents, etc.

This is all very widely known in the deaf community, as well. I can ask, "Did you have deaf parents?" and the person will reply, "No, but I didn't become deaf until I was 8, so I'd already passed the critical language period" -- they know what I'm asking.

First Google result (there are a ton... this is quite easy to research on your own if you are so inclined):

http://www.asha.org/about/publications/leader-online/archives/2002/f021203.htm

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Not surprisingly, deaf children with deaf parents performed much like hearing children, while the children with hearing parents were significantly delayed in their understanding of a Theory of Mind. The results also show that the deaf children who were delayed in Theory of Mind were equally delayed in both the verbal tasks and the tasks that required minimal language. This means that the children lack some fundamental understanding of how the mind works regardless of whether the task requires language to understand it.

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Perhaps rufio could be encouraged to take her/his own advice. Details of the research into the effects of language deprivation can be found elsewhere - maybe s/he could research it there.

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I've already read various sources on the subject of Theory of the Mind, and a few different types of learning impairment. I, for one, would be very interested to hear the personal experience of posters here.

One curious point that seem to have come up: I've read in a couple of places that the Critical Period is around the age of 12. This is quite different from the Theory of Mind which usually develops around the age of 3 or 4 in children.

From my personal experience, I've noticed that children's accents are dependent on where they lived around the age of puberty. They may have live in a few places beforehand, but puberty is generally when becomes fixed.

Iain

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rufio wrote:

GIGO, McTag. I'm actually not sure if your comment was meant to be an insult, or if it was just horribly off-topic. In any case, I'm not going to answer here what can easily be looked up somewhere else.

I am unaware of ever trying to insult anyone here, and usually avoid making personal remarks. In your case I'll make an exception.

Off-topic remarks can be one of the delights of these threads, I feel. I do not apologise for that, if that is what I did. I personally visit this website to perhaps learn a little of interest, and to take part in pleasant exchanges with engaging and stimulating people. I feel I will not achieve either of these modest ambitions with you.

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McTag wrote:

Third meaning given (1771) A writer who is careless in style or composition. I thought Set would like that one.

heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .

I'm rather obvious, aren't i . . . i'll go back hours, days, even weeks later, and finding an error in a post of mine, will edit it. Which reminds me, i saw one in my Cromwell bio . . .

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I have heard that children don't speak like their parents, they speak like their peers' parents. Seems that puberty or thereabouts is when you'd have a large enough peer group to make a difference and less parental oversight...

And, going back a couple of pages, I think the first two colors are red and black, then green, then yellow.

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Wy? Wee!

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Sozo, that's interesting, do they have any idea why that happens (I mean, specifically)? Also, what does a grasp on Theory of Mind have anything to do with simple intellectual competance? Can you give me examples from your own experience?

McTag, it seemed horribly off-topic to me, like you were just taking advantage of an opportunity to reduce all Americans to crude philistines by critisizing American slang. That's what usually is the case, in my experience.

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dduck wrote:

McTag wrote:
Why do Americans use the word dumb to mean stupid?

bartleby.com wrote:
In ordinary spoken English, a sentence such as He is dumb will be interpreted to mean "He is stupid" rather than "He lacks the power of speech." "Lacking the power of speech" is, however, the original sense of the word, but it has been eclipsed by the meaning "stupid." For this change in meaning, it appears that the Germans are responsible. German has a similar and related word dumm that means "stupid," and over time, as a result of the waves of German immigrants to the United States, it has come to influence the meaning of English dumb. This is one of dozens of marks left by German on American English. Some words, like kindergarten, dachshund, and schnapps still have a German feel or are associated to some extent with Germany, but others, like bum, cookbook, fresh (in the meaning "impertinent"), rifle, and noodle have become so thoroughly Americanized their German origins may surprise some.

Iain

In Dutch you have the word "stom" which means "stupid" but also "lacking the power of speech" Smile

For some reason that reminds me of the funny word 'coleslaw', a dutch word pronounced englishly (is that a word??)

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rufio wrote:

McTag, it seemed horribly off-topic to me, like you were just taking advantage of an opportunity to reduce all Americans to crude philistines by critisizing American slang. That's what usually is the case, in my experience.

What, I would go on to an American website and correspond for pleasure and no little diversion with Americans and others for two or more years (I started on Abuzz) and then attempt to traduce my companions and my hosts with a cheap jibe? No, you got that wrong. It was a genuinely- meant question.
I sometimes put in a joke when I can of course, but it wasn't that either. A bit light-hearted is all. I am not so po-faced as my avatar. And, I am sorry to be so obscure.

BTW, to change the subject, but still on the theme of light-hearted treatment of linguistics, I very much enjoyed the book "Mother Tongue" by Bill Bryson. Anyone else read it? That's a good one for your Christmas stocking.

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"American website"? Are you not aware of the universality of the internet? I've met a variety of people on the net, and quite a few of them like to jab in wherever they can. Even Americans (god forbid). Then you get sociologists who tell you that your langauges defines how you think. I'm just really sick of hearing stuff like that now, so try not to answer those questions. I personally don't know the answer - it's been so long since I thought of it as an actual question.

I haven't read that book - I'll look out for it.

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Sigh, linguistics doesn't teach the most important thing about language.

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Sigh indeed.

rufio, I am trying to allow for the fact that there is some sort of tone thing going on -- that you don't mean to come off the way you do -- but it's hard to keep explaining (even a subject very close to my heart!) when you don't seem to be paying attention to what I've said already.

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McTag wrote:

BTW, to change the subject, but still on the theme of light-hearted treatment of linguistics, I very much enjoyed the book "Mother Tongue" by Bill Bryson. Anyone else read it? That's a good one for your Christmas stocking.

Just read "Notes from a small island" (although in German), and I don't tell you why , haha Laughing

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Well, McT, i've repeatedly tried to correct the blantant spellings errors so common among the English, as well as the Canajuns and Oztralians--all in the spirit of good fellowship. And here i find that you've traduced our hospitality--traduced it!

I am so indignant, i can hardly express myself.

If you wish to appear here again, in good odor (that's right, odor, not odour), you will have to submit, in longhand, the following words, each written 500 times:

center
color
humor
aluminum

. . . then we'll just see if we want you back. The nerve . . .

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A colourful post on my favourite board. There is much theatre in this place. As my Canajun compadres would say, there's a lot of drama (as opposed to drawma, which is how NORMAL FREAKING PEOPLE say it). Pass the pasta shouldn't rhyme, for the love of God.

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Honest ta gawd, eh!

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Sozo, I want to know more about this phenomenon. Do you know anything specific? That article was interesting, but far to general.

Edit: If roger ever comes back, I'd like to know more about this Navajo thing too. After all, isn't this a "free exchange of information?"

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