Grave of headless Vikings discovered in England

That's a lie, and we've been over if before. Get over it, you're the arrogant one, who spouts bullshit you won't support, and goes postal on people who have the temerity to disagree with you.

You may be assured that i don't want your respect.

People who are sufficiently well informed do not mistake a knorr for a longship. Knorrs are trading vessels, they are beamy and bluff bowed. They might have been decorated at the prow and stern, but they could hardly have been decorated like a dragon ship.

According to the Short Saga, the Eric the Red Saga, the Groenlendigasaga and the Thorfinn Karlsefni saga, Leif bought Bjarni Heljolfsson's ship from him before he sailed off to find his "Vinland." That was a knorr--so no, your source is wrong, Leif did not "sail to America" in a dragon ship. Are you aware that Leif was already living in Greenland when he made that voyage?

I don´t know if it is true either - just took the information out of one of my books about the Vikings.

Since you don't know all the posters it may be relevant to add here that Walter served in the German Navy with great distinction, and has studied German naval history in great depth - which topic presumably would cover neighboring seafaring nations as well, since the populations and the borders in that part of Europe have moved so very much over the centuries

That's why I remember a bit about Viking ships - but since I one of my exams was about (medieval) scriptures and those of the French abbeys are the best examples ...

A little bit off-topic, maybe, but it's been brought up by other posters:

The importance of Columbus's four voyages across the Atlantic is not based so much on what he 'discovered' as it is on what ensued, what his voyages initiated. Nobody except Scandinavians knew anything about the voyages of Leif Eriksson or any other Norseman. These norhern Europeans were not part of the mainstream of European society and their comings and goings went largely unremarked. The putative settlement of Vinland is of no importance as it led to precisely nothing. Except for Iceland and, to a much lesser extent, Greenland, there are no pre-Columbian Norse settlements anywhere near 'the New World.'

Quite the opposite with the voyages of Columbus. His 'discoveries' immediately became known across what was still being called 'Christendom.' It led to further exploration and settlement of the new lands. Of course, if Columbus had never been born, someone else would have made the same 'discoveries' sooner or later. That's obvious. But the historical facts is that it was Columbus who dared make the voyage and thus gets the credit.

Ah, Nova Scotia has moved? Amazing what you learn on the internet!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/viking-land-of-wine-pinpointed-in-canada-712530.html

Well, the Vikings made sporadic voyages to Markland over quite a long period (up to 400 years, some think) - but they didn't permanently settle there like in Greenland and Iceland.

Well Canadian schools are known to be vastly superior to most schools in the U.S., so there's nothing surprising in that.

Do you really consider present-day Nova Scotian towns and villages 'pre-Columbian Norse settlements', HS???

Their coins have been found as far south as Maine - but you're right their Vinland settlement in Nova Scotia was more of a trading camp, even though it lasted for centuries. The weather getting colder nearly killed off Viking settlements in Greenland as well - the graves are dated, and skeletons are known to have become frailer and shorter with each passing decade, an obvious sign of near-starvation. Towards the end they may have resorted to cannibalism.

The climate change rather than the Indian raids probably caused them to abandon their American settlement as well - but that in no way alters the fact they're the ones who discovered the American continent and not Columbus.

I suppose that I've only learnt it at school 50 years ago because Tyrkir, the "foster father" of Leif Ericson, was born in Germany and took - according to anecdotal sources - from here the wines which gave Vinland its name

I realize what Walter says usually has hand and foot.

I have search Swedish, Danish and Norwegian sources to what kind of ship Leif used.....everywhere it is said ship and nothing else. Only one place it was a longship OR dragonship.
It seems rather clear that noone has a perfect discription of this ship.
Here is a knorr with a dragon up front but not all had one.
http://www.thepirateking.com/images/ships_longship.jpg

Yes I am aware that Leif was already living in Greenland and he took a priest with him from Norway to Greenland, which mad his father furious.

Thank you Saab for this beautiful picture as well as for your help on Scandinavian languages - to my knowledge nobody else on this forum knows any.

That in no way alters the fact that the Indians were the ones who discovered the American continent and not the Vikings or Columbus.

CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS

Columbus say to the Spanish King
“I’ll let you in on a mighty fine thing
I aim to prove that the world is round
United States ain’t never been found.”
(United States ain’t never been found)

“Now gimme ships,” old Columbus say
“I’ll sail to China the shorter way”
The king, he say “This world is flat,
Sail too far and where you at?”

Let me fly, fly, fly stormy water
Let me walk on the bottom of the rollin’ sea
(Let me run, run, run around this great and fertile land
‘Cos this world ain’t big enough for me, oh no)
The world ain’t big enough for me

Now Queen Isabella, she gave heed
Said “Go buy the ships you need
Take my jewels but travel slow
‘Cos you might fall down to the world below.”
(Might fall down to the world below)

Crew was a-yellin’ “Turn back home
We ain’t ready for the Kingdom Come”
Look-out hollered, “Land I see,
Why there’s the Statue of Liberty”

Now all of the Indians come out then
To welcome Chris and the hungry men
“Step right up and have a little bite
And the Rotary meets on Monday night”
(Rotary meets on a Monday night)

Columbus sailed right home again
Ship load of gold for the Queen of Spain
King, he say, a-kickin’ at the ground
“Always know’d that the world was round”

Yes, the entire dynamic between Leif and his father is crucial to fixing the timeline for the later expedition to find Leif's Vinland. Leif appears to have "overwintered" in Norway in 999/1000, converting to Christianity, and taking on a mission to bring Christianity to Greenland from Olaf Tryggvason. Of course, Tryggvason leapt to his death in the waters of the Baltic by the time Leif and his father came into conflict over the subject of Christianity, but neither of them knew it. When word reached Greenland, probably from a merchant or merchants in the following year, Leif's powers of persuasion were considerably diminished. It seems that many of the men who had converted renounced their conversions, although the women seemed to continue to favor Christianity.

It would explain, though, why the Thorvald Eriksson/Thorfinn Karlsefni/Fredis Eriksdottir expedition failed to find Leif's Vinland. If Leif were feuding with Erik over Christianity, although he sold his boat to his brother Thorvald (and Fredis Eriksdottir claimed that he had given his "booths" at Vinland to her), he apparently did not tell them at what latitude they would find Vinland. Their settlement at Straumfiord clearly did not match the description of Vinland that Leif had brought back several years earlier.

That's an old bit of historical nonsense. That was only unfounded rumor that he drowned in the Baltic.

The settlement by Thorfinn Karlsefni, Thorvald Eriksson and Freydis Eriksdottir, as i have already mentioned, was at what they called Straumfiord on the Great Northern Peninsula of Newfoundland, far to the north of Nova Scotia. In fact, had they tried to sail as far south as Nova Scotia, the prevailing westerly winds combined with the Gulf Stream would have carried them to Ireland. Along with Thorvald went Thorhall the Hunter, Erik's "factor" and his hunter. Thorhall took one of the "after boats," (the equivalent of a ship's launch on a knorr), and sailed to the north looking for Leif's Vinland, but was carried far to the south by a storm. They were then caught in the Gulf Stream, and that, along with the prevailing westerlies, carried them to the coast of Ireland. Thorhall had a nasty mouth on him, at not long after they had landed in Ireland, and been enslaved, he gave the Irish some sort of excuse to murder him. At least one, and maybe more, of the men with him escaped to Iceland a few years later, which is how we know what happened to Thorhall.

Not only is it clear from the saga sources that the settlement was on the Great Northern Peninsula of Newfoundland, but the site has been found and excavated at Anse aux Meadows, and the Belle Isle Strait corresponds to the description of Straumfiord.

The Norse overwintered at Straumfiord, and in the following summer, Thorvald went north, and Thorfinn Karlsefni sailed south along the west coast of Newfoundland. Thorvald was murdered by Thule Eskimos, after they had murdered some of their people out of hand. He was buried, at his own request, on the shores of Lake Melville in Labrador.

Thorfinn everwintered at Hop (pronounced "hope"), and there met some Dorset culture Eskimos. In the following spring, alarmed at the number of Eskimos they saw, and reacting in a typically stupid Norse way, they started a fight with them, and got the worse of it. The Dorsets got out of Dodge as fast as they could, very likely because their intentions had never been hostile. Thorfinn and company also got out of there, and arriving back at Straumfiord, they made another voyage south down the east coast of Newfoundland. They found hardwoods, which is what Thorfinn was after, and they their encountered Beothuk Indians. Another stupid fight ensued, they killed several of the Indians, and then, panicking once more, finished their cargo and left again for Straumfiord. They didn't stay long, and sailed soon for Greenland. Thorfinn and Gudrid, along with their son who had been born on Newfoundland, soon sailed for Iceland. The details of much of the Thorfinn Karlsefni saga are corroborated by the Short Saga, the Erik the Red Saga, the Islendingabok and the Landnammabok.

Thorhall had gone off to look for Thorvald before it was known that he had been killed, and was, as i've said, driven off course, caught up in the Gulf Stream and landed in Ireland. Freydis Eriksdottir and her two Iceland partners remained at Straumfiord for one more winter, at which point Freydis engineered a dispute between the Greenlanders and the two Icelandic merchants, which lead to the killing of the Icelanders, leaving Freydis in possession of their ship. The Greenlander men weren't willing to kill the Icelander women, so Freydis took an ax and did it herself. They then sailed back to Greenland the following spring, ending Norse settlement on the North American mainland (if one considers Newfoundland to be part of the mainland). The story of the murders came out a year or two after Freydis' return.

They were nowhere near Nova Scotia. They named the open sea to the west Straumfiord because they thought it was a deep fiord, and the strong current suggested the name to them. It corresponds exactly to the description of the Belle Isle Strait between Newfoundland and Labrador. The site of their settlement was found in the late 1960s (actually found earlier, but not then recognized) and has been thoroughly excavated.



The re-creation of the Norse houses at Anse aux Meadows. The site is at the foot of Epaves Bay, on the Great Northern Peninsula of Newfoundland, and communicating with the Belle Isle Strait--the Straumfiord of the Norse.



The excavation of one of the actual sites.