Turned off by wife wearing short cut dresses

@engineer,

Quote:

You don't see the correlation between a woman dressing in a sexy dress and a man getting someone to sit on his penis and wiggle around? Now that you mention it, that does seem like a strange parallel to draw. Rolling Eyes

This is interesting, Engineer. In both the fashion show, and the strip club, there are female (or male) performers and male (or female) audience members. It is interesting that you compared the performer at one, with the audience member of the other.

Do you question the claim that there is a weird, detached, idealized eroticism at fashion shows?

1 Reply

@ebrown p,

Never been to a fashion show, but while ladies walking in pretty clothing may be visually stimulating, I don't see that it would be any different than sitting in a park on a spring day and people watching. I think paying someone to sit in your lap and act in an overt sexual manner is not the same and by making the comparison the original poster is equating his wife wearing a nice dress with him soliciting sex work. Does he really think his wife is soliciting men by wearing a nice dress? I think there are some serious hangups or maybe cultural issues here. I could see an Arab man making this argument as to why his wife should cover her body in public, but I think most western societies disagree with the principle of hiding feminine sexuality to protect men from their libidos.

1 Reply

@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

Quote:
Somehow I don't see the correlation between a fashion show and a strip club.

I don't see the difference.

((Other then at a fashion show, the cookie-cutter, unrealistically thin models-- who are trained to be expressionless dummies, are used as props to sell merchandise with no interaction with the audience, and no distinction or creativity permitted.))

I think a local fashion show for charity is pretty far from the super model type show you described here.

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@engineer,

Quote:

. I could see an American man making this argument as to why his wife should expose her body in public, but I think most eastern societies disagree with the principle of flaunting feminine sexuality to entice men with their libidos.

When you write ignorant statements such as this, it makes me wonder if your view of Americans is based on anything but the crudest of stereotypes.

If you had any experience with or understanding American culture, you wouldn't make such clownish generalizations. (I happen to know from personal experience that Americans love and respect their wives in spite of your view of their strange culture.)

1 Reply

@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

ebrown p wrote:
. I could see an American man making this argument as to why his wife should expose her body in public, but I think most eastern societies disagree with the principle of flaunting feminine sexuality to entice men with their libidos.

When you write ignorant statements such as this, it makes me wonder if your view of Americans is based on anything but the crudest of stereotypes.

If you had any experience with or understanding American culture, you wouldn't make such clownish generalizations. (I happen to know from personal experience that Americans love and respect their wives in spite of your view of their strange culture.)

I think a typical western man would recognize that a woman can express her femininity if she chooses to and that it is not his call. That is a lot different than insisting that he control how she presents herself whether than means insisting she flaunt herself or insisting she cover herself. The issue is who has control, the man or the woman. You are free to believe that women in Mid Eastern societies are free to dress how they please, but I think there is plenty of evidence to support the opposite view. As for love, I think men in all cultures love their wives, but they have different opinions as to the amount of control they should exert over them.

The original poster has an issue with his wife looking attractive in front of an audience. He implies he is using emotional blackmail to dissuade her to the point of saying he no longer finds her attractive. I call BS on this, but perhaps there is a cultural component. If you feel that is ignorant on my part, please forward me some links to educate me. If you need me to, I can try to dig up articles by Iranian women pointing out that they are required to cover their bodies but men routinely wear form fitting clothes directly refuting the religious argument that is used to restrict them.

1 Reply

@engineer,

My real objection started when you had to drag in your simplistic stereotypes about "Arab" (or now Middle-Eastern) culture into a discussion that clearly happened in American context.

There was no reason why you had to do this, there are certainly many American men who have had feelings of jealousy. The question is-- why did you have to drag a completely different culture that you have no deep understanding of into the discussion?

An intelligent discussion on the differences between American and Middle-Eastern culture (or should I say the superiority of American culture over Middle-Eastern culture), we would need to dive into many different, often complex issues. You would want to hear the voices of the women you mention alongside the voices of the women who strongly defend their cultural identity.

These simplistic off-hand characterizations of "Arab culture" that pass judgement on a culture without any understanding really bother me.

I bet you have never had any significant contact with "Arab" culture.

Why didn't you make this generalization about Jews (after all the same things could be said about Jewish culture)?

The answer is simple-- everyone feels that safe attacking the Arabs this days since defaming Black and Jewish people has grown out of style. Making this kind of prejudicial statement about Jews would have made you (rightly) feel uncomfortable.

1 Reply

@ebrown p,

My opinion on the original post is that this guy is a controlling POS, but another possibility is that he grew up in a culture where this type of behavior is acceptable. My attempt was to both give him the benefit of the doubt and to point out that his attempt to control his wife in this manner is similar to forcing women to wear concealing clothing in other cultures. That particular facet of those cultures seems applicable to this discussion and might make the point to the original poster that his actions are similar to those in other cultures that draw such fire in western world. I did not comment about those cultures other than to point out that men enforce a strict dress code on women. While my exposure to those cultures consists more of reading and interacting with US residents formally from the Middle East, I don't think my argument in this particular is off the mark.

While I don't know the location or background of the original poster, my assumption is that he is from the US, Canada or Europe. I don't doubt that some men in these locations would dearly love to control their women and dictate how they dress, but most understand that should women control themselves.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Fine then... just understand that, in my opinion, it is important to challenge prejudicial stereotypes. Defending Arabs against defamatory stereotypes is especially important right now. I am ready to drop this part of the discussion.

The more interesting part of this discussion is what happens in Western culture (unless the original poster suggests that some other culture is, in fact, involved.).

There are many American men who feel jealousy. Furthermore there is a significant number of good-old All-American men who would have a problem with their wives dressing in a way they felt was too provocative. This is not to mention the fact that Americans are more prudish in general about these things then many other countries.

How American men and women would handle this probably varies greatly from marriage to marriage.

1 Reply

@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

There are many American men who feel jealousy. Furthermore there is a significant number of good-old All-American men who would have a problem with their wives dressing in a way they felt was too provocative. This is not to mention the fact that Americans are more prudish in general about these things then many other countries.

I don't disagree with that statement. Nor do I feel that DestinysDad shouldn't state his concerns as in "I think that dress is too revealing." But the stuff about not being attracted to her, worrying about her image issues, etc strikes me as BS. Comparing lap dances to wearing a sexy dress is absurd. Does a man dressing in a well cut suit compare to a woman paying to get felt up by a Chippendale? Does the argument "If you don't want me to go to strip clubs, you should dress it down" make sense?

1 Reply

@engineer,

For the record (I just went and checked) DestinysDad very said he didn't get a lap dance. I read this that he went to the club to support friends (which is not difficult to believe in the case of a bachelors party for example).

But aren't all of these issues really things that need to be dealt with in the context of a marriage?

There are things that I would be upset if my wife did. And there are things that I know would upset my wife. These things probably vary quite a bit from couple to couple. In what I consider a healthy relationship, they are negotiated between the two individuals involved. For a husband or a wife to say to her spouse "I feel uncomfortable when you dress that way" is not inappropriate. Communication is never a bad thing.

I am hesitant to judge the inner workings and agreements of other people's marriages.

1 Reply

@ebrown p,

I definitely think issues like this are open for discussion and I would rather DD discuss his issues with his wife than bottle them up. My postings are more based on what I read between the lines of his postings - that he has a real issue with his wife appearing attractive to other men. DD compared his feelings about his wife wearing a sexy dress to her feelings about him going to a strip club and getting a lap dance. Does he really consider his wife getting a second glance from a passing guy as the equivalent of having a stripper sit on his lap? Maybe my interpretation is not correct, but I don't think it is without merit. DD early on said that he thinks this is really his problem and I agree. I hope that together they can agree on a way for her to express her individuality and for him to find this as non-threatening, but if it comes down to her dressing down to support his insecurities or him backing off, I vote for the latter. Of course every couple will balance this out their own way, but he did come asking for advice.

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@engineer,

Huh? It seems clear to me that DD did not get a lap dance. Am I missing something? Why are you making lap dances, which didn't happen in this case, such a big part of your argument?

1 Reply

@ebrown p,

Not saying DD got a lap dance, saying he is comparing his feelings about his wife's dress (which she has not worn) with hers about him getting a lap dance (which he did not get). I understand that he respected his wife's concerns about the lap dance. I'm commenting that he feels his about the dress are similar.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Quote:

Not saying DD got a lap dance, saying he is comparing his feelings about his wife's dress (which she has not worn) with hers about him getting a lap dance (which he did not get). I understand that he respected his wife's concerns about the lap dance. I'm commenting that he feels his about the dress are similar

You overlook the part where the dude says that HE did not want to go the the strip club. You assume that he refused the PAID FOR (WTF!) lap dances because he was doing it for the wife. He made his friends look bad and did his best to ruin the party for his wife?? I think not, this is about is issues with the erotic, more to the point the erotic part of him.

Have you folks ever heard of projection?

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

In my own take, I do figure issues with the erotic too - although they may be more religious issues, or family or culture trained morality issues, however disproportionate from a short skirt to lap dancing.

I was raised that thinking impure thoughts was a serious sin. I can remember (barely) thinking that way.

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@ossobuco,

Quote:

although they may be more religious issues, or family or culture trained morality issues, however disproportionate from a short skirt to lap dancing.

Makes zero difference. either way he keeps making this about the wife, when it is all about him. He is the one who is out of step with society, his wife sounds normal so far.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

I'm not arguing against that this is primarily about him.

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@ossobuco,

I AM arguing against that this is primarily about him.

When there are two people in a marriage, issues like this are going to come up. If my wife is uncomfortable about what I wear, I am at least going to listen to her... I might change it, or I might not... but there are certainly things I change just to help have a better marriage. But, the point is that these issues do come up in many marriages in the real world.

I think people are being awfully hard on DestinysDad who seems to be quite reasonable.

This is a thread about marriage-- although this is a specific case, these types of issues are pretty damn common for real people.

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@ebrown p,

Sure it comes up in marriage, from both sides of the aisle. I think it is mostly a cultural or religious area of judgmentalism, but that it all has some clothing or activity being too erotic for the mate to do in public. A short skirt, or, egads, shorts? Showing a little cleavage is not equal to a lap dance. I think a lot of the judgement goes against what woman may wear outside the house, with the judger taking her as "asking for it". To me a big fear factor about the sight of women's skin, and sin.

No, I don't have any statistics, but that is my opinion.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

First, repeat after me-- there is no lap dance. Ther was never any lap dance (if anything the comparison was to viewing erotic dancers). Nothing in this discussion has anything to do with lap dances.

Quote:

I think it is mostly a cultural or religious area of judgmentalism,

Doesn't each married couple come with their own agreed upon cultural and religious standards?

In an Orthodox Jewish marriage, for example, showing a bit of cleavage would be very inappropriate. Both sides in this type of marriage understand the rules going in, and that each partner would rightfully feel betrayed were these rules broken. I don't think anyone here would try to ban, or even discourage, Jewish couples who choose to live according to their culture or religion.

It makes me uncomfortable when you offer your interpretation of the customs of people without any real insight into their motivation. When you put words, like "asking for it" into a imagined persons mouth, it doesn't say anything about real people (who are always more complex and sincere and even sympathetic then the people in your imagination).

This is a matter of tolerance and diversity.

1 Reply

Turned off by wife wearing short cut dresses

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