Setanta
 
  0  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 08:19 am
@failures art,
Quote:
I'm saying that some people may adhere to religion because they feel that abandoning it would mean social rejection.


I see no reason to believe that is true.

I don't need your snide, childish remarks on my personality, creep. I care about the people to whom i am close socially or emotionally. I try always to be considerate of them, and display personal loyalty. And yes, i don't give a rat's ass what you or any other member of the amorphous, faceless public around me think of me.

I would have no objection to the claim that as a general rule, politicians have no real convictions. There are politicians who have been great leaders, and they may well have been motivated by conviction--which is not at all the same as saying that would have or could have boldly espoused those convictions to the public, and have been successful politically.

As usual, you miss the point of my remarks, probably because you are incapable of maintaining a coherent train of thought in your head. I have said that i believe that atheists are atheists because of conviciton. I have implied and you surprisingly even understood that i describe politicians as people who are not much motivated, or not motivated at all by conviction. Then i suggest that atheists are likely not to be politicians. Whether you can see or not, that is a coherent progression of thoughts. Even then, i was careful to point out that i would no more vote for someone who were an atheist and had that as the centerpiece of their political aspirations than i would someone who were religiously motivated to take up politics.

I take issue with your claim that people get elected regularly based on their religious convictions. I'm calling bullshit until you can come up with some proof that there is a significant number of people who get elected precisely because they state that they have a religious agenda and intend to implement it if elected. I've already pointed out the movement among the religiously convinced to gain public office by hiding their religious conviction--those called stealth candidates. It blew up in their faces big time, though, in Dover.

Posting images of the notorious from television doesn't make your argument at all. You keep talking about harm. What harm to you allege is done to anyone by what you allege to be negative media images of atheists? What's the matter, don't you get invited to parties as often as you'd like?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 08:50 am
@Setanta,
I think that you are both speeking of facts as I seem to be able to observe both of your point of views taking place in reality, now I do have to disagree with some of what you say!
I prefer to look for the scientific views of reality rather than that of our cultures though. Here is a different view point of reality and opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHoxZF3ZgTo&p=ED4BA3683D0273ED&playnext=1
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 09:06 am
@Setanta,
You're free to think my comments are snide, childish, etc. You can continue to believe me a creep or whatever's next in the name calling book, Set. I'm nobody to convince you of anything nor do I wish to waste my time with your bullying. I'll not fight with you.

You disagree with what I've said regarding social rejection, political gate-keeping, and media messages. This is perfectly fine with me. Having Set's intellectual stamp of approval isn't something I need, and it's way overpriced.

We disagree. This is our impasse. We need not say anything else on it.

A
R
That's cool.
failures art
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 09:24 am
Religion Dispatches wrote:
The Social Cost of Atheism
by Lauri Lebo


The results of an online survey published in the latest issue of Skeptic Magazine show that atheists in America fear paying a high social price in coming out as a non-believer. “The Stigma of Being an Atheist: An Empirical Study on the New Atheist Movement and its Consequences,” written by Tom Arcaro, was based on the results of 8,200 people who identify as atheists or non-believers in God.

The survey, “Coming Out as an Atheist,” was posted live on the Atheist Nexus Web site for four months from September to December 2008. Respondents were asked various questions such as “In general, how stigmatized do you feel atheists are in your culture?” and “Do you feel that there would be any social repercussions if people in your [workplace/family/local community] found out the you were an atheist?”

By a wide margin, atheists in the U.S. were more likely to feel a sense of stigma, highest among those living in the south. For instance, 57 percent of U.S. respondents said they felt they would suffer at least minor social repercussions in the workplace if they came out as an atheist, compared to only 35 percent of respondents in Canada, 24 percent of Australians, 15 percent of residents of United Kingdom, and 12 percent of Western Europeans.

More than two-thirds of Americans said they would suffer stigma in their community and 61 percent said they would suffer stigma from their family.

When broken down in by region in the U.S., those who live in Southern states of Oklahoma, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina and Tennessee (and North Dakota) reported the highest fear of social stigma. States such as California, Washington, New York, and New England states reported the least.

(Unfortunately, the article is not available online.)

I can’t say I’m really all that surprised at the results. If anyone needs anecdotal confirmation, remember NFL linebacker Pat Tillman, who walked away from his successful football career to join the Army after Sept. 11 and was killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan?

Remember how the Army and the government treated his family for trying to get to the truth of his death rather than accept the official false war hero narrative spun by the Bush administration?

In an interview with ESPN.com, Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich, who led the second investigation into Tillman’s death, said the reason for the family’s dogged pursuit of the truth of his death was because they didn’t believe in God.

“When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don’t believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more—that is pretty hard to get your head around that. So I don’t know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough.”

Actually, that’s not only insulting to atheists. It’s insulting to all people of faith. By that logic, Christian parents are just hunky dory with their children dying for nothing?

By the way, I couldn’t resist, what does Conservapedia have to say about Tillman being an atheist? Simply, it was impossible for him to have been one (even though Tillman wrote in his journal, “I’m an atheist”) because he cared about people and his country and he had strong moral convictions and atheists only care about one thing, “the daily fight to remove God from their lives and the lives of others.”

(You must read the entire entry. It’s a hoot.)

By the way, the survey addressed this notion about morality. Respondents were also asked to provide an example of a social situation where they experienced stigma for being an atheist. A typical answer was being told that they can not be good people without belief in God. I’ve always found this idea absurd, as if people can’t love and care for others and make ethical decisions without an instruction manual.

Additionally, one of the most interesting differences among American atheists and those in other countries was in response to the question, “How often did you attend religious services when you were growing up?” Only 33 percent of Western European respondents reported going to church several times a month; 52 percent of Canadians; 43 percent of British and 45 percent of Australians.

For Americans, however, the number was 64 percent. So for almost 2/3 of American non-believers, religion was once a regular part of their lives.

Source: http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/laurilebo/2783/the_social_cost_of_atheism

The comments section offers some interesting anecdotes as well.

A stigma
R
T
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 09:47 am
@failures art,
Seems as if you have been doing your homework!
spendius
 
  0  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 10:02 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Then i suggest that atheists are likely not to be politicians. Whether you can see or not, that is a coherent progression of thoughts.


They would be politicians like a shot out of a gun if they thought they had a chance of getting elected or winning an insurrection. So how can it be a "coherent progression of thoughts" when other reasons why atheists are not likely to be politicians are excluded and, in my opinion, and history's too, much the most likely reason of all.

Which means, of course, that Setanta doesn't know what a coherent progression of thoughts is although when they are his own thoughts he obviously thinks he does.

Spin a coin on its edge on a polished table and get a glimpse of the circularities Setanta embraces.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 10:41 am
@failures art,
The article is dead on, in my estimation. I often replay in my mind the quote I once read (without corroboration) from Theodore Roosevelt: "Thomas Paine. That filthy little atheist."
I have had people treat me like a spokesman for "the devil," more than a few times. The main reason I no longer read spendi on the subject is that he has that same venom in his words. I can tolerate being clueless, but not the constant mud -spattered ill wishes.
failures art
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 10:42 am
@reasoning logic,
Hardly any homework. This is just a editorial. I am very interested in the book mentioned: “The Stigma of Being an Atheist: An Empirical Study on the New Atheist Movement and its Consequences,” by Tom Arcaro. It has came up now in three different discussions I've had recently. As I understand, he actually did do his homework.

A
R
T
spendius
 
  0  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 11:08 am
@edgarblythe,
I have never called anybody a "filthy little atheist" nor a "spokesman for the Devil". And I wish nobody ill.

What actually is "mud-spattered ill wishes" is to dismiss perfectly reasonable arguments, all of which are well known, which you have no answer to, as if they are of the type you designate. That borders on ******* evil. That's **** smearing. You can't take on my posts so you besmirch me by associating me with those terms you use. It's sneaky too.

No wonder some people are reduced to the same tactics to oppose you.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 11:10 am
I also believe it depends on the sort of persons that surround you. I live in a density of fundamentalists. Naturally my own relatives react with horror to my atheism. As well as persons on my job. If I lived among the well educated, moneyed - maybe not moneyed, necessarily -sorts, I believe I would be more outspoken, with no fear of retaliation. That would probably be so even in this same part of Texas.
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 11:16 am
@edgarblythe,
I'm beginning to realize that the older I get, the more I lose my inhibitions about so many things. Some are funny and some get me in trouble. But I'm enjoying the freedom.

BBB
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 11:28 am
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
I don't hide my thoughts from my immediate family and their spouses, but I just don't preach about it. At my job, I would not last long as a figure of controversy. But that holds with any topic you could name, when on the job. If a nutcase gets in my face, telling me how Obama is responsible for everything that has gone wrong in their life (it happened) I have to fend them off without telling what I think.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 11:35 am
This morning I watched about twenty minutes of Joel Osteen. He's a local boy made it big. What struck me about his sermon was, it was a motivational speech, instead of what we normally expect from a minister. The basic gist of today's message was, Do not give voice to negative thoughts about yourself, as the thought, once verbalized, becomes self-fulfilling. All done with concern and humor. He played the Bible in, now and again, but it was something one could take away on its own merit.

I don't ordinarily watch even him, but my wife believes in Christianity, so I occasionally look in.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  -2  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 12:52 pm
@failures art,
You're an incredible jackass. This is the second time in two weeks that you've made a point of picking a stupid, childish fight with me, and you have ended, both times, by trying to suggest that i was picking a fight with you. You are a clown. FM and i were kidding around with Thomas about vegans, and you come in to pick a fight, and then to blame me for it. Now i make a comment about these two clowns with their atheist marching bands, and you pick a fight with me over that--and on both these occassions, you try to end it all by saying you won't fight with me, the implication being that i picked the fights.

You are seriously delusional. I will continue to point out that you are a creep, that you are childish, that you are delusional for as long as you try to pick fights with me, and then whine about it when i fight back, when i won't take your **** lying down. Grow up, Fart.
Setanta
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 12:56 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
. . . “The Stigma of Being an Atheist: An Empirical Study on the New Atheist Movement and its Consequences,” by Tom Arcaro . . .


"New atheist movement?" I'm not an atheist because i joined someone's movement or someone's anti-church. This does not describe anything i recognize as the province of atheists.
spendius
 
  0  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 01:20 pm
@Setanta,
No sooner does Setanta say something to promote atheism or denigrate the religious and he is "in the province". His wimpy assertions notwithstanding.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 01:26 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

failures art wrote:
. . . “The Stigma of Being an Atheist: An Empirical Study on the New Atheist Movement and its Consequences,” by Tom Arcaro . . .


"New atheist movement?" I'm not an atheist because i joined someone's movement or someone's anti-church. This does not describe anything i recognize as the province of atheists.

Not being a careful reader quite often, I totally missed that. There is such a movement in their minds, perhaps, but not in mine.
failures art
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 02:13 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

Setanta wrote:

failures art wrote:
. . . “The Stigma of Being an Atheist: An Empirical Study on the New Atheist Movement and its Consequences,” by Tom Arcaro . . .


"New atheist movement?" I'm not an atheist because i joined someone's movement or someone's anti-church. This does not describe anything i recognize as the province of atheists.

Not being a careful reader quite often, I totally missed that. There is such a movement in their minds, perhaps, but not in mine.

This term wasn't coined by them. According to wikipedia, the term first appeared in Wired Magazine, Nov 2006 by Gary Wolf.

The term got popular, but it wasn't their branding or ego that created it.

A
R
T
failures art
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 02:18 pm
@Setanta,
Whatever Set. You win. Be satisfied.

A
R
T
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sun 3 Oct, 2010 02:21 pm
@failures art,
I am a hasty reader. I often have to go back and cover my ass.
0 Replies
 
 

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