msolga
 
  3  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 07:35 am
@Setanta,
Whatever, Setanta ..

But I am not going to further digress from the intended thread topic, as I understand it.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 08:39 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The essential poverty of the Tibetan people, and their thralldom to a feudal system for nearly a thousand years are germane to that topic.


Aren't you projecting certain western values here that are less about religion and more about materialism? I mean, when did we establish that the existence the Tibetans want for themselves is unacceptable? To call it feudal makes sense if perhaps you are to assume some western values, but couldn't you be mistaking feudalistic (read: primitive; inferior) ways because of your western socializing and values? Perhaps they DESIRE a minimalistic lifestyle.

Either way, I'm kind of confused by your outrage.

T
K
O
Setanta
 
  -1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 08:58 am
@Diest TKO,
Your confusion is not for me to cure--however, i will respond to your post.

I am not defining feudalism in any other way than the way the word is intended to be used. And that is to mean that the people of Tibet, before the Chinese invasion, owned nothing, and had the use of the land only so long as they worked the land for the benefit of the monasteries, which owned everything, including the people. Certainly, i consider the notion that one has access to land for the purpose of eking out a subsistence living (if they were lucky and very, very hard working) to be inferior to a system in which people own the land they work, and have the full use of the production of that land. This has nothing to do with "western values," although, ironically, the Chinese so often play the PC card by claiming that they don't have to give people the human rights about the lack of which western nations complain because those are western values, and not Chinese values. Of course, historically that's bullshit, but that's neither here nor there in a discussion of feudalism in Tibet.

The term feudalism was often applied to China in the Spring and Autumn periods more than 2000 years ago, but that was somewhat inaccurate because there was no hierarchy, just independent rulers who might or might not have submitted on any one of a number of hegemons. The term was also applied to Japan in the period of the Ashikaga shogunate, but is was just as false as the application in China because the Daimyo were independent rulers who only paid lip service to the authority of the Ashikaga Shogun to the extent that they could or could not defy him in arms.

Strictly speaking, feudalism only ever really existed in Europe, but the term feudalism can reasonably be applied to any situation in which the population of the agricultural sector do not own their land and only have the use of it to the extent that they provide a portion of their harvest to their overlords. This is why it is not entirely inaccurate to apply the term to pre-imperial China and pre-Tokugawa Japan. In the case of Tibet, there was no formalized system as there was in Europe a thousand years ago, when peasants provided labor in lieu of taxes, or payments in lieu of labor, and had the absolute use of a portion of the manor's lands, if not the actual ownership of the land. In Tibet, the agricultural peasant had the use of the land only so long as they provided a fixed proportion of their harvest to the monatery which owned the land, and had no rights to the production of any of the land except to the extent that the monastery annually renewed the agreement. To that extent, the system was feudal.

I don't know what the hell you think you mean by "a minimalistic lifestyle," but the peasants of Tibet prior to 1950 had no lifestyle at all, and no choice about how they would live their lives. It was work on the monastery's land, on the monastery's terms, or starve. I rather supsect, though, that when it comes to eating, people rarely, voluntarily adopt a "minimalistic lifestyle," unless they are already the overfed children of western civilization. It seems to me that you are assuming western values here.

My "outrage," as you term it, is with Buddhist who take a holier-than-thou stance toward other organized religions, as though they were somehow free of the superstition and hypocrisy of other religious confessions. They are not. Note that i not only used the example of the condition of the people of Tibet, but also the murderous violence between the Tamils and the Sinhalese, as well as referring to the Sohei, the warrior monks of Japan in the Sengoku period which attened the collapse of the Ashikaga shogunate. My experience of Buddhists in the west is that they are hypocrites in these respects.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 09:41 am
Well, i went looking for "tibet+feudalism" so you could read someone else's take. The first hit was this page, which supports my point of view about Buddhists in general, and not just Tibetan feudalism. I don't know who this joker is, i've never heard of him, but he has extensively annotated his page, and those notes function as a bibliography.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 09:49 am
Here's one of the most telling lines from his page:

Quote:
Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.”


He cites an article in Worker's World, by one Gary Wilson, in the February 6, 1997 edition.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  9  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 10:04 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Your confusion is not for me to cure--however, i will respond to your post.

Set, this kind of **** you pull tests my patience sometimes. Stop talking to me like I'm your student. Get sorted.

I was suggesting you step back to examine how much of your viewpoint is based on western concepts of feudalism. Perhaps parallel which is best to make would be the Native Americans here in the USA. Certainly we are intelligent enough to separate the ill conditions on a reservation versus the life that the tribes had prior to colonial expansion. Modern tribes vary greatly in the amount of western culture they wish to bring into reservations. I'd say that describing some tribes chosen lifestyle as minimalistic is not a far stretch of the imagination. We can say this, without spit-talking about nobody choosing to starve. Not all cultures have the same goals as us.

You introduce some red herring about the Chinese, which I don't have to defend. Come off it man. Your hostile, shoot-anything-in-the-cross-hairs style of posting borders on obnoxious sometimes. How is this beneficial to anybody when you put forth this you'll-know-better-than-to-challenge-my-intellectual-footing-next-time vibe? You can do better, and if you're as smart as you want everyone to respect you as, maybe you should try. Being an asshole isn't fashionable no matter how smart you are.

I'm not your ******* enemy. I don't deserve your scorch the earth rants and it wouldn't hurt you to be a little ******* polite.

Sorry for trying to contribute in what apparently is your lecture hall.

littlek - You want to know why it's hard to be an accepted atheist? Because some atheists run through the grove snapping every loose olive branch they can find. They can't just be happy, they have to win.

T
K
O
Setanta
 
  -3  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 10:10 am
@Diest TKO,
Why don't you "get sorted," clown? I have very explicitly explained in this thread why i have written what i've written, and your inability to comprehend clearly stated ideas does not make me responsible for your confusion.

Did you bother to read the link? I thought not. Feudalism was never practiced in the United States, although, of course there was slavery, and the transportation of criminals form England before the revolution, which functioned much like feudalism--but it wasn't feudalism. There was feudalism in Tibet, in the sense of the term in which peasants are bound to the land to the benefit of the land owners.

If you've got a problem with my tone, try reading and understanding what i've written in context instead of jumping in pages after i began writing it and then complaining that you're confused.

None of this is ranting--don't confuse my contempt for your laziness with ranting. Keep your adolescent insults to yourself--once again, i'm not responsible for your inability to understand plainly stated concepts.
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 10:17 am
@Setanta,
Is this going to be on the test?

Taking notes.
K
O
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  -3  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 10:19 am
There's no test, and if there were, assholes would be excused, so you wouldn't have to show up.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 10:21 am
To get the thread back on track where it was when i began to complain about Buddhists--i object to the holier-than-thou attitude of Buddhists because i find them as superstitious and dogmatic as the practitioners of any other organized religion.
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 10:28 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
i object to the holier-than-thou attitude of Buddhists because...
because no one is holier than thou. Find me a buddhist as self righteous as you Set and then I'll take your objection seriously.

Nah. Nevermind. How about this: You win. You're right. Now, get back to your lecture.

T
K
O
fresco
 
  5  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 10:28 am
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
Sorry for trying to contribute in what apparently is your lecture hall.

.....not that he's didactic of course !
Wink
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  -2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 12:03 pm
@Diest TKO,
It wasn't a lecture, asshole. It was you attempting to demand that i explain for the third time what i'd already explained twice. It was you attempting to get me to defend the nearly universal definition of feudal.

What a whiny little boy you've proven to be. I spoke to you as an adult, assuming you are intelligent enough to understand what was being said. But you whine that you are being spoken to as though you were a child. Behave like an adult, and that won't be a problem.

And why don't you stop pissing all over Lil' Kay's thread.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 12:03 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
To get the thread back on track where it was when i began to complain about Buddhists--i object to the holier-than-thou attitude of Buddhists because i find them as superstitious and dogmatic as the practitioners of any other organized religion.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 04:18 pm
I once wrote a letter that was published in the Corpus Christi Caller newspaper. It was in defence of evolution. The very next time I went to visit an aunt of mine, she met me at the door, hollering about atheists, then shut the door in my face. Forward to my mother's funeral. My sister made the arrangements. Knowing she had not liked a certain minister, my sister opted for someone else. When my aunt learned that her favorite minister had been rejected, she sneered, "What are you going to do? Find some atheist to give the service?" To her dying day she remained belligerent and unforgiving. I remain friends with her elder daughter, however. It hurt because she and I had been friendly for a long time before I wrote the letter.
littlek
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 04:42 pm
@edgarblythe,
Edgar, that's rough. I have many in my family who are quite religious. They prayed for our souls, but they didn't really interfere with my whole immediate family opting out (at least not that I know of). I've always lived in areas high in tolerance (Massachusetts, Santa Fe, and Athens, GA) so I haven't run into this on a personal level - at least not in an in-your-face kind of way.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  4  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 04:44 pm
To all the rest of y'all. I don't mind semi-off-topic digressions, but I would prefer that we don't resort to nonconstructive bickering, especially name calling.
Seed
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 05:12 pm
@littlek,
I'm sorry I feel as if I started this digression by bringing religion to a non religious thread.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 05:16 pm
@Seed,
Damn you, seed. I shall never forgive you.
Seed
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2010 05:23 pm
@edgarblythe,
whoa is me! oh WHOA oh WHOA!
 

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