Atheism

@livinglava,

Quote:

Why don't you find it even more astounding that God can design a system that automatically evolves DNA without any limited intellect having to sit down at a design station and do it in an artificial way?

The main reason I don’t think that, is because there is no evidence for it.

But it is an interesting question. It is in fact what most secular Evolution believers think happened. But let us say that that is exactly the way it happened.
Here is why that would not settle anything.

If and when evidence or proof is found for that happening, I would immediately suspect an intelligent actor that could pull off such a pool shot. It would be like a cue ball falling out of the sky, going through my roof and hitting the racked balls on my pool table resulting in all the stripped balls going into corner pockets. And then having that happen every time I racked them up again. That would begin to constitute evidence for something ‘unnatural' occurring. I would begin to suspect an intelligent actor dropping those cue balls. IOW, farmer et al would then again accuse me of religious bias.

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@Leadfoot,

Spent yesterday mostly bass fishing so Im just reading some of the latest .

Really If you dont understand what the Miller/Urey (and subsequent) experiments produced, ty not to eny wht theyve done in less than 50 years what happened on aerth in half a BILLION years.
You mentioned incredulity about D versus L amino acids and proteins.
You should o some more reading about how "enantiomeres " and Chirality is evidenced from all over the universe.
NASA is a good place to start. They have a series of R&D quarterlies from the National Labs where quite a bit of research has gone on into L/D relationships of Amino acids and sugars in prebiotic molecules. Evidence isnt that magical. Its somewhat prosaic biochemistry.(like L sugars are unstable and any D amino acids have not been able to link with L sugars in biotic molecules). Or, we have at least 2 meteorites that have been studied for biochemicals and while most all amino acids were at a higher ratio of L to D, and at least one, aspartic acid, is found in all enzymes in use by animals. Aspartic acid L rotation is at least 6 times greater than the D's, and the D sugars with which the amino acids link are the much more chemically stable L enantiomeres.

Not all evidence jumps out and screams at you, much of it requires connectivity to other , often unrelated, pieces of evidence . (Like why does life prefer C12 over C1). That too is a rather dull bit of evidence.
Going back out Bass fihing toay. If e dont catch anything by 11, Im comin in and will go photographing a cow of which Im doing a cartoon portrait. Ill catch up tonite or tomorrow.

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See LL, that's what I mean.

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@Leadfoot,

Just because YOU ont have the ability to assess evidence, doesnt men it isnt good science and answers our many questions.

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@farmerman,

An unfortunate horizontal gene transfer has occurred in our posts. They don’t help.

Catch you when entropy has caught up with the thread.

And hope you catch something. (Not CV 19)

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@Leadfoot,

In the mean time, I found this great article on proteins. Good simple English and not afraid to admit the obvious. There is an incredible level of information encoded in multiple levels of hierarchy shown here.
I highlighted the detail in it that was new to me. ******* awesome.

Quote:

The Chemistry of Amino Acids

Introduction
Essential amino acids
Why learn this?

Amino acids play central roles both as building blocks of proteins and as intermediates in metabolism. The 20 amino acids that are found within proteins convey a vast array of chemical versatility. Tertiary Structure of a proteinThe precise amino acid content, and the sequence of those amino acids, of a specific protein, is determined by the sequence of the bases in the gene that encodes that protein. The chemical properties of the amino acids of proteins determine the biological activity of the protein. Proteins not only catalyze all (or most) of the reactions in living cells, they control virtually all cellular process. In addition, proteins contain within their amino acid sequences the necessary information to determine how that protein will fold into a three dimensional structure, and the stability of the resulting structure. The field of protein folding and stability has been a critically important area of research for years, and remains today one of the great unsolved mysteries. It is, however, being actively investigated, and progress is being made every day.

http://www.biology.arizona.edu/biochemistry/problem_sets/aa/aa.html

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@Leadfoot,

which kinda ends the Digital moment. "folding" in the genome occurs in a purely analogue fashion, and those proteins that "read" DNA and RNA are analogue. Also the bases can modify their very expressions by amplification or reduction or terminating in a myriad number of ways.
So Im not really understanding where the hell you are in your journey, but you shouldnt forget how "folding" and other 3D operations use specific enzyme Promoters so they may be transcribed .

I think youre staying in to promote the Intel design argument.
I dont know if its you or Ll that was responding to me when one of you stated that the IDer is also responsible for the environmental pressures(increases in Oxygen at the mid Ediacaran or another maximal O2 [ concentration] at the beginning of the Mississippean) that were placed on the species so that it will evolve wrt what that environment causes in adaptive change. Am I right in understanding what you guys were telling me?

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

Good simple English and not afraid to admit the obvious

WHICH IS WHAT?? you really ought to be selling used cars with statements like that.

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@farmerman,

I was referring to the ‘necessary information encoded in the protein sequence that determines the correct folding pattern which was in turn encoded at a higher level in the DNA sequence that in turn specified the amino acid chain in the protein'.

I have my own ideas about that but no time to go down that rabbit hole. Either way, it reeks of design.

You made me laugh with your comment on folding being the end of the 'digital' view. In addition to the above, 'digital' would be vastly less useful than it is without an analog interface called Digital to Analog converters (DAC). It is a standard item in the digital designer's toolkit. Not to mention the Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) complement. The Brain is full of both.

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@Leadfoot,

In almost every post you assume that design causes reactions . I dont think you can prove that "correct" folding patterns exist. If you look at the coronavirus, matching two amino acids by folding a dot on one limb with another on the adjoining limb often goes awry an new structures present themsleves. A promoter of amino acids can totally change the genes expression as can "reading" the DNA .

Your argument has been that everything seems so well designed that it reeks of intelligence, but yet youve implied a few times , and I paraphrase" The designer has presented the world so it can appear to be blind evolution".
Kinda conflicting logic.

Fishin again today, time for coffee.

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@farmerman,

Sounds as though you are doing more fishing than farming these days.

I'm doing NO golfing at all. And since I have been a 4 - 5 day-a-week golfer for the last 20 years, it is quite a change.

Not very happy about it, but that's the way things are for me right now.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

I dont think you can prove that "correct" folding patterns exist.

Go back and read that article. It’s from sources you trust. Even the short snippet I pasted strongly states the importance of 'correct folding'.

But to go on, That itself is a further level of functional encoding. The goal of making a functional end protein from an amino acid string that is at the same time the MOST stable folding configuration for that string, ! ****, that’s mind blowing!

And to your point, yes, there are many other folding configurations that are possible and stable, but not functional and not as stable as the correct and functional folded configuration. Makes me think of origami.

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@Frank Apisa,

its a special bass season and I get a chance to ue a little craft I bought at a yard sale. Its a stern back "Old Towne" canoe and I have a very small 5 hp motor that just fits. It fits two just right (as long as we dont cross lines). My fishin buddie is Mrs F today.
We 'll be in the River around 9:30 because these bass are hungry all day . We usually catch enough for a mel and then we throw the rest back.

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@Leadfoot,

so the Designer is just trying out all configurations. Reding the article I dont think the term "correct" is as you interpret it.

Quote:

****, that’s mind blowing!

you should spend a bit more time with stable sugars and Amino acids and how peptie linkage actually works. As I said before, prosaic chemistry covalent carbon linkages and ionic amines.

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@farmerman,

Been there. Hope you will look beyond that.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

so the Designer is just trying out all configurations.

That is part of the argument. 13.8 billion years is not enough time to get it done by trial and error.

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@farmerman,

I've eaten some striper from the Jersey shore. Not bad at all...although I prefer bluefish. (Some people think bluefish are too oily.) Both sea bass and bluefish need special kind of cooking.

Never have had any fresh water bass.

Our weather here is super great for kayaking a river or canal today. Hope the same for you and the wife on your canoe. Catch a bunch.

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@Frank Apisa,

Bluefish , when small (we call em snapper blues), they are not at all oily and fishy tasting. We broil em in the oven with a lemon butter just till theyre a wee crispy on the outside (like 4 minutes on a Wolf gas broiler).
Today we caught a nice small mouth and we did him as a split crispy fish with a soy "and Thai sesame sauce (Bankok Padang). This fish is dusted with a crushed crumb and garlic and broiled till nice and crispy (head on , shoulders strait back) . We had some of our garden pea pods in a butter boil.

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I hope the martinis were shaken not stirred.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Bluefish , when small (we call em snapper blues), they are not at all oily and fishy tasting. We broil em in the oven with a lemon butter just till theyre a wee crispy on the outside (like 4 minutes on a Wolf gas broiler).
Today we caught a nice small mouth and we did him as a split crispy fish with a soy "and Thai sesame sauce (Bankok Padang). This fish is dusted with a crushed crumb and garlic and broiled till nice and crispy (head on , shoulders strait back) . We had some of our garden pea pods in a butter boil.

Sounds delicious. There may well be nothing on Earth that tastes better than crispy fish skin, although crispy turkey skin gives it a run for the money. I use sesame sauce (not Thai) a lot these days. Great taste. My sister tells me I should start adding toasted sesame seeds to dishes where I do. Gotta try that.

My father used to do blues in the oven...in an tightly closed aluminum foil wrap. Seasoned it with lots of herbs, garlic, and (as I remember) tomatoes. It was spectacular. I've never been able to recreate it...but that mostly is because I don't get blues that often.

I keep hearing that wild sea catch of all species of fish is in trouble. We seem to be getting to the point where there are too many people on the planet.

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