failures art
 
  0  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 04:08 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs wrote:

Quote:
I also don't understand why the atheist who speaks out is an obnoxious preacher, but the believers should go on all day without getting blame.


It depends.

It depends on cheery picking nice things about religion.

jeeprs wrote:

Religion preaches love of others,

Results may vary.

jeeprs wrote:

the eternal life,

How is this valuable or even positive?

jeeprs wrote:

the ways of virtue,

Vague statement. Which virtues are you talking about? Often many religious "virtues" are the means in which a culture of indifference is established to subjugate a people.

jeeprs wrote:

having a place in the scheme of things.

We have a place in the scheme of things. We have no choice. We are a part of nature. Religion does no great job than atheism at giving a person a place in the universe.

jeeprs wrote:

If atheism just preaches the denial of the sacred, the denial of meaning and the sole reality of material existence, then what's good about it?

Atheism promotes free thought, and challenges what we hold sacred, and what meaning we find. If any of these things are truly sacred or have meaning, upon exit from critical thought, they still will.

A
R
T
jeeprs
 
  0  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 05:09 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
We have a place in the scheme of things. We have no choice. We are a part of nature.


But many atheist philosophies deny that and will insist that the universe is devoid of any meaning, save that which we impose upon it, and that our existence here is the outcome of chance and necessity. Or we do not have any autonomy as persons, we are only the expression of the 'selfish genes' which are executing their own 'master plan' within which our only role is to carry them. In all of these scenarios, our separation from nature - dumb and blind - is absolute. As per A Free Man's Worship, by Russell, or Chance and Necessity, by Jacques Monod.
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 05:17 pm
@Khethil,
Quote:
folks will do what that jelly in their heads moves them to do,


I hope to find time tomorrow to expand on that phrase. I have to be up and doing tomorrow by 11 am so I must be off to the pit.
Khethil
 
  0  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 05:30 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
What is an Atheist preaching?

Different things. But from my own personal experience, it was all about the message: "Accept the truth about our condition, shed your silliness because we're in this together and we need you" - that kind of sentiment. Like I said, I'm sure there are different spins from each preacher.

failures art wrote:
It seems that the only way some will find tolerance of Atheists is if they remain silent.

Probably - some can't tolerate anyone thinking differently than they do. This, I believe, has something to do with the very large and very popular misconception about believe and knowledge; that theism and atheism are based upon beliefs, not necessarily knowledge. When we accept that someone "believes" something (rather than them claiming to 'know'), its pads the mind to a more tolerant view - rather than sparking choler and vitriol.

But yea, I love talking theology; I find it fascinating. But someone always wants to turns into a "Convince Me"-argument. What a shame...

failures art wrote:
I suppose if atheists are upset about their civil rights and what the religious do, then their real concern should be that they don't sound preachy, and understand their place.

Maybe so - I'm not sure there's any civil rights issue in this. Though, nothing much surprises me any more.

Thanks for the reply
jeeprs
 
  1  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 05:49 pm
the approach I am trying to take is not to convince anyone of anything, but to suggest that one is really clear about what one believes, and why.

If I was talking to evangelicals I would be characterized as atheist.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:16 pm
@jeeprs,
I characterize you as one who wants to police the atheists.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:33 pm
@edgarblythe,
"Police" is a pretty strong word. Maybe I should be flattered.

I am interested in seeing what those who describe themselves as atheists think. Not many of them really seem to know what it means, other than a general dislike of religion. But there are many shades of meaning in both terms.
hingehead
 
  0  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:34 pm
I don't see atheism as an organised movement. I think it's a point of view arrived at by an individual and there is no shared path. To think of atheism as an organised religion is bizarre (even though apparently some atheists do). We are not united by our disbelief.

I understand other people's wish/desire to see themselves as part of some huge plan with purpose, but it's not how I see the world and I've seen no evidence (convincing to me) of any such plan.

Religion is a useful form of social control, but I don't require it, I have my own moral code that seems to fit in quite well with accepted behaviours in the context I find myself in so I don't see any need to proselytize on the spiritual.
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:50 pm
@jeeprs,
The atheists on this forum know what atheism means. There is one shade to real atheism. Religion is not that shaded, either. Poofism is poofism, no matter which words you choose to describe it.

Once you get beyond the understanding that no gods exist, atheists are as varied as one could imagine. I don't live and think the way K or Thomas or farmerman thinks. We are individuals, with lives of our own. There is no dogma to being atheist. I subscribe pretty much to Phillip Wylie's take on it. His two books, An Essay on Morals and The Magic Animal speak to me. Other atheists, setanta, for instance, would possibly ridicule those books, or at least dismiss them. About all we have in common is our understanding of our place in the cosmos and a shared annoyance that the religious try to enforce their belief on us.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:50 pm
@jeeprs,
A dislike of organized religion may lead some individuals to atheism, but it is certainly no part of a definition of the word. It means without god, and it doesn't mean anything else, canting religionists and smug agnostics notwithstanding. I suggest that it is you who really doesn't know what it means.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:58 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs wrote:

Quote:
We have a place in the scheme of things. We have no choice. We are a part of nature.


But many atheist philosophies deny that and will insist that the universe is devoid of any meaning, save that which we impose upon it, and that our existence here is the outcome of chance and necessity.

I wouldn't say that any of the meanings that an atheist finds in life are ever "imposed." We can't really say the same for the religious narratives that have been presented.

jeeprs wrote:

Or we do not have any autonomy as persons, we are only the expression of the 'selfish genes' which are executing their own 'master plan' within which our only role is to carry them.

It's our biological prime directive jeeprs. We are programmed to desire this. Having said that, it does NOT rob us of our autonomy. Nature requires no calculation to act in the greatest economy (Fuller). We can pass our genes, but we can choose who to. We have agency over it in the end.

jeeprs wrote:

In all of these scenarios, our separation from nature - dumb and blind - is absolute. As per A Free Man's Worship, by Russell, or Chance and Necessity, by Jacques Monod.

If you think any of that separates us from nature, you're projecting.

We are a part of nature, in no way above it, and in no way privileged in it. Only from a religious standpoint do we start to make ourselves the entitled masters of a small universe.

A
R
T
Khethil
 
  1  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 08:10 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:
I don't see atheism as an organised movement. I think it's a point of view arrived at by an individual and there is no shared path. To think of atheism as an organised religion is bizarre (even though apparently some atheists do). We are not united by our disbelief.

This is not only quite true, but important to maintain. For if we are "united", there must be an 'other' with which to unite against or apart from. Does anyone think we need more divisiveness?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:11 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
I wouldn't say that any of the meanings that an atheist finds in life are ever "imposed." We can't really say the same for the religious narratives that have been presented.


The word for them is 'revealed'. Only subsequently did they become 'imposed'.

Quote:
If you think any of that separates us from nature, you're projecting.


Well you don't know your atheism then. Some supporting quotes from well known atheist philosopher Jacques Monod:

Quote:
Chance alone is at the source of every innovaton, of all creation in the biosphere. Pure chance, only chance, absolute but blind liberty is at the root of the prodigious edifice that is evolution... It today is the sole conceivable hypothesis, the only one that squares with observed and tested fact.


Quote:
.. the scientific attitude implies what I call the postulate of objectivity—that is to say, the fundamental postulate that there is no plan, that there is no intention in the universe. Now, this is basically incompatible with virtually all the religious or metaphysical systems whatever, all of which try to show that there is some sort of harmony between man and the universe and that man is a product—predictable if not indispensable—of the evolution of the universe.


The questions which this cause me to ponder are that, if there is no intention in the universe, then humans are the only beings that we know of which are capable of intention (and reason, for that matter). So again there seems a radical disconect between man and nature in this scenario. First, it seems perversely anthropocentric - human intentions are the only real ones. Second, it seems nihilistic - there is no way that intention (or reason) reflects anything in the universe, outside our own perception.

If atheism doesn't mean this, what does it mean?




jeeprs
 
  1  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:29 pm
Correction: 'humans are the only ones capable of intention"
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:33 pm
The questions which this cause me to ponder are that, if there is no intention in the universe, then humans are the only beings that we know of which are capable of intention (and reason, for that matter). So again there seems a radical disconnect between man and nature in this scenario. First, it seems perversely anthropocentric - human intentions are the only real ones. Second, it seems nihilistic - there is no way that intention (or reason) reflects anything in the universe, outside our own perception.
_______________________________________________
There is no disconnect of man from nature. As nature evolved, so we evolved along with it.
We are the only reasoning animals, so far as we are aware. The purpose and thought which we exhibit is transitory. The individual may be filled with purpose for a short span of years, but it ends in death. Eventually, the human race will die out. The solar system will no longer exist in time.
We have no evidence there is anything like a mind or a presence that guides the universe. Matter expresses itself in the form of life, under the correct conditions. But it cannot last.
We are minute specks in the scheme of things and we are only here for a short time.
hingehead
 
  0  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:40 pm
@jeeprs,
Atheism isn't a belief system, it's a 'disbelief system'. We don't believe in gods. But that doesn't preclude us have millions of other varying and contradictory beliefs. We are not a monobloc. An equivalent would be saying everyone who likes dogs run their lives by the same credos.

Atheism isn't a competitor to religion and it's incorrect to think of it in those terms.

jeeprs wrote:
The questions which this cause me to ponder are that, if there is no intention in the universe, then humans are the only beings that we know of which are capable of intention (and reason, for that matter). So again there seems a radical disconect between man and nature in this scenario. First, it seems perversely anthropocentric - human intentions are the only real ones. Second, it seems nihilistic - there is no way that intention (or reason) reflects anything in the universe, outside our own perception.


I disagree with your initial statement about reason and intention. There is no radical disconnect even in what we have observed so far in our isolated part of the universe. Don't tell me my cat doesn't have intentions when he jumps on my chest at four in the morning. You are being anthropocentric in your thinking.

Wikipedia wrote:

Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived.


I do believe that moral codes are not ordained by supernatural beings and that they are subjective, but that does not mean I don't adhere to them or that I actively seek their destruction. I think they are an evolutionary imperative. I do believe the only meaning to our lives is that we attach to it. So what? Is that any different to the meaning a theist attaches to theirs because of their theism?

And to reiterate, I don't expect every atheist to see the world the same way I do.
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  -3  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:40 pm
CHICKEN SKIN
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  -3  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:41 pm
some TIMES soon
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  -3  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:41 pm
Daysies
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  -3  
Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:41 pm
FLODDER INUSA
0 Replies
 
 

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