Atheism

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I have the sense of respect for you NOT to insist that you refrain from using "belief" for some of the guesses, conjectures, suppositions and inclinations or desires you have.

Not sure why you cannot show me that same respect...

Frank, I am unable to fathom your reason for suggesting that I don't "respect" you.

But I have to assume that you really didn't read my posts (including, but not limited to, the very one you quoted in this post) on the subject very carefully.

1 Reply

@layman,

What I actually said was:

Quote:

I have the sense of respect for you NOT to insist that you refrain from using "belief" for some of the guesses, conjectures, suppositions and inclinations or desires you have.

Not sure why you cannot show me that same respect...but we can go on to something else and find agreement there.

You are insisting that I DO HAVE BELIEFS...which can only happen if you insist I must consider my guesses and suppositions to be "beliefs."

I've shown you the respect not to do that with you (in reverse).

Return the respect by not insisting that I do what you seem to be insisting that I do.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

You are insisting that I DO HAVE BELIEFS

No, I'm not. As I said, you are not reading my posts very carefully. All I said, most recently, was:

Quote:

I didn't even begin to try to tell you what words you MUST use. I simply noted the difference between your definition and "common usage." By the standard of common usage, I would say that you do, in fact, have beliefs, whether you want to acknowledge it, or not.

I'm noting that there is a difference between your idiosyncratic definition of "belief" and the one that is in "common usage," that's all.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Put me on IGNORE if you choose.

Huh... I must confess that I made that choice already. Technically speaking, you've been on my ignore list for quite sometime, just as a way to increase the readability and ease of access of some threads on which you post heavily. Nothing personal. Doesn't mean we can't talk...

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

So when is the ignoring going to start?

You are currently spending lots of time not ignoring me...and since you have, in effect, promised...let's get with it.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Oh...nothing personal!

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@Frank Apisa,

Plato said (more or less):

Quote:

In order to conclude that one "knows" any given proposition: (1) the proposition must be true, (2) the person asserting knowledge of the proposition must believe it, and (3) his belief must be justified (not based on "guesses").

That's an attempt at an "objective" definition of knowledge (or the word "know'). But, as Twain and others have noted, there is also a subjective sense of the word "know':

Quote:

"The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain't so."

Plato would say you can't "know" something that "ain't so." Twain says otherwise.

Frank, if I recall correctly, you have said things to the effect that "I KNOW A, I don't believe it." Perhaps you are just adopting Twain's subjective use of "know" in the sense of being cocksure, eh?

0 Replies

@layman,

There is nothing idiosyncratic about my definition of "guess", Layman. Nor of my definition of "suppose, estimate, conjecture, deduction, presume, imagine, postulate or approximate."

And if I prefer to use those words to describe what I am doing when I am guessing, supposing, estimating, conjecturing, deducing, presuming, imagining, postulating, or approximating...

...rather than using "believing"...I should be able to do so without you suggesting idiosyncratic thinking on my part...so that you can then say...

..."I would say that you do, in fact, have beliefs, whether you want to acknowledge it, or not."

That kind of thinking on your part, Layman...is idiosyncratic.

Once again...are we okay.

Or are you going to continue to insist that my assertion that I do not have "beliefs" has to be wrong somehow, someway?

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

...rather than using "believing"...

I have never said your usage of alternative words was idiosyncratic, nor did I ever suggest that you MUST ever choose the word "believe" to describe your own mental processes.

I addressed my comments to your past assertions that you do NOT "do believing." I am taking "do" to refer to something beyond mere word choice in this context.

Quote:

Or are you going to continue to insist that my assertion that I do not have "beliefs" has to be wrong somehow, someway?

And, again, you have expurgated my statement in such a way as to make it appear that I'm saying something that I did NOT say. Why do you do that?

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@Frank Apisa,

When did I promise you anything?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Or are you going to continue to insist that my assertion that I do not have "beliefs" has to be wrong somehow, someway?

I'll say it again, Frank. I am not an absolutist when it comes to what words must "mean." That said, certain words carry commonly-used meanings.

I don't think you are a liar. So, I would say that you believe what you say (that's my usage).

You, on the other hand, repeatedly suggested that anyone who uses the word "believe" is dishonest--is a liar. That is an idiosyncratic assertion that few people would share.

You could only conclude that by creating a novel, personal, and subjective meaning for certain words (such as "believe" and/or "dishonest").

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

When did I promise you anything?

You wrote:

Quote:

Technically speaking, you've been on my ignore list for quite sometime

I responded:

Quote:

So when is the ignoring going to start?

You are currently spending lots of time not ignoring me...and since you have, in effect, promised...let's get with it.

The remark was made in the "promises, promises" mode.

So...since "technically speaking" I've been on your ignore list for quite some time...

...when does the actual ignoring start.

Why, considering all you've said, are you spending so much time not ignoring me?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

...when does the actual ignoring start.

I don't know. So far it's a technical measure, designed to clear up my access to threads. I'll let you know if anything changes.

1 Reply

@layman,

Quote:

You, on the other hand, repeatedly suggested that anyone who uses the word "believe" is dishonest--is a liar. That is an idiosyncratic assertion that few people would share.

Nonsense. Way overstated!

The only time anything even remotely like this has arisen is when talking about using the word "believe" in the context of a discussion about REALITY...specifically, the existence or non-existence of a GOD.

Even then, I did not accuse anyone of lying...and certainly not on the general scale you are suggesting.

I've often offered a variation of: When a person says "I believe a GOD exists" or "I believe there are no gods"...that person is using the word "believe" to disguise the fact that he/she is actually sharing a guess.

It appears nobody wants to say, "I guess a GOD exists" or "I guess there are no gods."

But that is what is happening. A guess is being made...and the word "believe" is being used as a disguise. I suspect (especially in the case of "I believe there is a GOD") that happens to give the guess more gravitas than it is due.

In any case, I do not do believing. I have no beliefs.

When you finally get to the point where you can accept that...let me know, Layman. Then we will be on the same page.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
...when does the actual ignoring start.

I don't know. So far it's a technical measure, designed to clear up my access to threads. I'll let you know if anything changes.

Well...that sounds like a difficult thing to do, Olivier.

It certainly has not happened as of this last post of yours.

And if you notify me of anything...it will still not have happened.

Too bad, that.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Whatever .

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

In any case, I do not do believing. I have no beliefs.

When you finally get to the point where you can accept that...let me know, Layman.

As I have repeatedly stated and otherwise made clear, Frank, I accept that you believe that. And I also assume that, if I shared your definition of "belief" (whatever it is, because I don't even know what it is) then I would completely agree with you.

I don't share your definition, and I don't expect to in the near future. Definitions don't, can't, and won't, make someone either "right" or "wrong." It's not a matter of being "right" or "wrong." I can only say that it's quite dubious that, using my definition (only) that your self-assessements are "correct," although they could be quite correct according to your definition. We're "on the same page" in that respect.

1 Reply

@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
In any case, I do not do believing. I have no beliefs.

When you finally get to the point where you can accept that...let me know, Layman.

As I have repeatedly stated and otherwise made clear, Frank, I accept that you believe that.

I do not "believe" that, Layman. I know it.

Quote:

And I also assume that, if I shared your definition of "belief" (whatever it is, because I don't even know what it is) then I would completely agree with you.

I don't really care whether you do or don't share my definition of "believe"...because for the most part, my definition of "believe" is not the important ingredient.

My definition of a guess IS.

If I am talking about a guess...I CAN CALL IT A GUESS. I do not have to call it a belief, just because you want to dictate to me that I must.

So...when I am talking about a guess, I call it a guess; an estimate...an estimate; a supposition...a supposition.

No need for me to have "beliefs."

When you finally understand that...we'll be on the same page. Right now, we are not.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I do not "believe" that, Layman. I know it.

We just going round and round here, aren't we, Frank? I have already addressed this (citing Plato, and all, remember?).

Quote:

I don't really care whether you do or don't share my definition of "believe"...because for the most part, my definition of "believe" is not the important ingredient.

My definition of a guess IS.

Lke I said, we're just going round and round. We're right back to where we started. Responding to Arg's post pointing out significant differences between "guesses" and other uncertain conclusions based on something more than BLIND GUESSES,, I said:

Quote:

Despite his claim that labels are unimportant to him, he seems absolutely devoted to the cause of re-writing the English language so as to remove the word "belief" and replace it with his treasured "GUESS."

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

.If I am talking about a guess...I CAN CALL IT A GUESS. I do not have to call it a belief, just because you want to dictate to me that I must.

As I have REPEATEDLY stated, and as I have REPEATEDLY pointed out to you that I have stated, nobody, certainly not me, has dictated to you what words YOU must use.

It's funny that you have tried to turn this into a "poor me, everybody's trying to abuse me by dictating what I should say" issue when:

(1) It isn't, and never was, and

(2) YOU are the one who brings this terminology up ad nauseam in what appears to be an attempt by you to tell OTHERS what words they must use.

1 Reply

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