Atheism

@layman,

Quote:

Layman I’m surprised at your statement because that is totally in accurate. I’m a former member of NYC Atheist and American Atheist and an avid viewer of the Atheist Experience....

...if you are without belief you are an Atheist, nothing more, nothing less.

Now, somehow, if I suggest to him that that's what he said, I am being "disingenuous."

But you being disingenuous because you know I was talking about how the term is used today with these groups.

But you and frank will believe what you want. Good luck with that.

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@argome321,

Quote:

I see you have no interest in honest discussion so lets not waste ether of our times

Arg, it seems like quite the "setup" when you say something, and thereby induce someone to repeat your position as it is stated, and then suggest that they are DISHONEST for repeating it, ya know?

1 Reply

@argome321,

Quote:

But you and frank will believe what you want

Well, Arg, henceforth I will try to refrain from believing that you mean anything you say, OK?

1 Reply

@layman,

Quote:

Arg, it seems like quite the "setup" when you say something, and thereby induce someone to repeat your position as it is stated, and then suggest that they are DISHONEST for repeating it, ya know?

If you think I 'm setting up .. .but setting up, that's you and Frank's thing.

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@layman,

Quote:

Well, Arg, henceforth I will try to refrain from believing that you mean anything you say, OK?

Ditto for me

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@argome321,

Quote:

But you being disingenuous because you know I was talking about how the term is used today with these groups

.

Are you kidding? I (not you) made the point that the way you (subsequently) defined it was the way "these groups" used it. You were not denying that.

I also denied that they were using the term "correctly." It seemed very clear that you were denying that they were using it incorrectly.

1 Reply

@argome321,

If a reasonable discussion cannot occur, Argome...YOU are the reason it cannot occur.

I am reasonable.

You have been asked about your position on this both by me on several occasions and by Layman on several occasions.

But getting a substantive answer from you is like trying to nail Jello to the ceiling.

You can answer Layman's question with a simple YES or NO. Instead you go into all sorts of crap that clouds the answer.

Do whatever you want...but if you are going to charge me with being responsible for aborting a reasonable discussion...I am going to dispute it.

1 Reply

@layman,

Nothing of substance, Layman...which is the reason for my response above.

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@layman,

Below is the complete and actual statement i posted

Layman I’m surprised at your statement because that is totally in accurate. I’m a former member of NYC Atheist and American Atheist and an avid viewer of the Atheist Experience. Here is the view for many of this atheist, modern day atheist.

Theism has to do with belief and (A) thesis is without belief. Knowledge in and of itself is a subset of belief. Gnosticism is about knowledge; (A) Gnosticism is about without knowledge. So there is two distinct items.
You can be an atheist which means that if you feel that the gods posited don’t make any sense that they could not exist, if you are without belief you are an Atheist, nothing more, nothing less. If you admit you do not know then you are an agnostic atheist.
If you are a theist but don’t know if a god exit but only believe that god(s) exist that would make you an agnostic theist, it is done this way for clarification.

Of course you have some on either side who claim to be Gnostic..to them knowing that god exist or knowing that god doesn’t exist.

I admit there are Atheist who say that theist who take agnostic theist position is nothing more than a cup out. Asking the question how can you believe in something that you can’t know exist?

So if one is asked do you believe in god(s) and replies they are agnostic it doesn’t answer the belief question. One is a question of belief the other is a question of knowledge.

I’m only responding to your post to bring some balance and clarifications of the modern atheist ideology. Past interpretations of agnosticism and atheism are irrelevant if there is ever to be constructive dialogue now in the present and in the future.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

If a reasonable discussion cannot occur, Argome...YOU are the reason it cannot occur.

Quote:

I am reasonable.

You have been asked about your position on this both by me on several occasions and by Layman on several occasions.

But getting a substantive answer from you is like trying to nail Jello to the ceiling.

You can answer Layman's question with a simple YES or NO. Instead you go into all sorts of crap that clouds the answer.

Do whatever you want...but if you are going to charge me with being responsible for aborting a reasonable discussion...I am going to dispute it.

Ge, Frank I read and I thought you were writing about yourself

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@argome321,

Looking back, Arg, I see that you say it is YOUR personal view, also:

Quote:

Here is the view for many of this atheist, modern day atheist....Past interpretations of agnosticism and atheism are irrelevant if there is ever to be constructive dialogue now in the present and in the future.

Who could "this atheist" be, if not you? You immediately set the terms and conditions for any "constructive dialogue."

1 Reply

@argome321,

You are still trying to build a cloud.

Here is Layman's question again:

Let me ask you directly, Arg: If a person says, "I have no belief in god" does that, in and of itself, necessarily make him an "atheist" by your definition of things?

You can answer it, "Yes, by my definition in and of itself, it necessarily makes him an atheist"...

...or "NO, by my definition in and of itself, that does not necessarily make him an atheist."

Stop with the nonsense.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

stop the nonsense.? you need to take your own advise. If you would look and stop yelling you would see I have asnwered that very questions a few post up.

But then I bet you see only what you want to see. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story

1 Reply

@argome321,

Quote:

If you would look and stop yelling you would see I have asnwered that very questions a few post up.

No, you didn't. You "responded" to it, but you did not "answer" it.

1 Reply

@layman,

He apparently is unable to see that he has not answered it...and he has been asked at least 6 times.

1 Reply

@layman,

Quote:

Who could "this atheist" be, if not you? You immediately set the terms and conditions for any "constructive dialogue."

save that I have had conversations with theist without having to define it and they understand perfectly what I mean by it,

2 Replies

@argome321,

"Yes, by my definition in and of itself, it necessarily makes him an atheist"...

...or "NO, by my definition in and of itself, that does not necessarily make him an atheist."

Which is it, Argome?

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

He apparently is unable to see that he has not answered it...and he has been asked at least 6 times.

Just because my answer escapes you doesn't mean I haven't answered it, that's on you if you don't see it

1 Reply

@argome321,

Quote:

save that I have had conversations with theist without having to define it and they understand perfectly what I mean by it

Good for him. We don't understand what you mean by it (or so you say).

What DO you mean by it?

By it, I mean the term "agnostic." Can an agnostic be anything other than an atheist? By your definition, I mean. I'm not asking about what some irrational psychotic might say, or "really believe." I'm just asking for YOUR definition, in that regard.

1 Reply

@layman,

Good for him. We don't understand what you mean by it (or so you say).

Quote:

What DO you mean by it?

Are we talkingabout Atheism etc?

[quote]By it, I mean the term "agnostic." Can an agnostic be anything other than an atheist? By your definition, I mean. I'm not asking about what some irrational psychotic might say, or "really believe." I'm just asking for YOUR definition, in that regard.[/quote]

Why would or do you think " Can an agnostic be anything other than an atheist?

2 Replies

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