Atheism

By the way, the 17th century in England was a time of an explosion of pamphlets and books which would very likely not have been published if ordinary royal censorship had been in place. The historian Christopher Hill has written a fascinating short book on the subject: The World Turned Upside Down: Radical Ideas During the English Revolution.

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@Setanta,

Thanks for the context on Hobbes. It looks like we largely agree, but I'm not entirely convinced that secular charities are necessarily less effective or efficient than religious ones. That is, I concede that religious charities have historically been more visible and, at least apparently, robust than secular ones, but I don't see any reason why this must be the case. As religious influence declines worldwide - as it has been doing for a few decades - those charities will be, I suspect, replaced by secular ones witout loss. Perhaps with gain, seeing as how secular charities have no need for gilded catherals and such lavish overhead. But now I've crossed over into uncomfortable territory, speculating about the future.

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@FBM,

Yeah, but such speculation is entertaining. Just as religious organizations don't have a lock on charity, they don't have a lock on corruption and theft, either. The CEO of the national office of the United Way in the U.S. "retired" in 1992 amid allegations of mismanagement and fraud (things like the Mercedes company car he drove). He was subsequently convicted and imprisoned. That put the newshounds on the scent, and some of them allege that from 40% to 70% of charitable donations get gobbled up in "administrative costs" and by those whose profession it is to solicit charitable donations. (They get a cut, naturally.) Just as it is unfair to blame so many wars on religion, it is unfair to blame all corruption on greedy preachers, too. If theft and corruption are possible, they will occur.

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Quote:

Wilso wrote: Isaiah 34:7
King James Version (KJV)
7: "And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness".
people believe this ****?

Think "ancient mists of time" mate, when cavemen saw weird and wonderful things and struggled to put them into human words.. Smile

Here's another example-
"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown" (Genesis 6:4)

So the "giants" or "sons of God" might have been aliens or whatever, who donated their sperm and DNA to improve the human gene pool-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Giants-hominids_zpsee8624c5.jpg~original

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@Wilso,

Wilso wrote:

Isaiah 34:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

people believe this ****?

Just another problem with using only the KJV. The correct translation, as in many bible versions:

Quote:

The wild bulls will go down with them,
The young bulls with the powerful ones.
Their land will be drenched in blood,
And their dust will be soaked with fat

Don't ask Romeo to give you this info.

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Quote:

Neologist said: Just another problem with using only the KJV. The correct translation, as in many bible versions is...etc etc...
Don't ask Romeo to give you this info.

Ha ha so now you're saying the dear old much-loved KJV is not correct!.. Smile

Let's add that to this list of other things you JW's say are not correct-
Celebrating Christmas, Easter and birthdays.
Crucifixes
Church spires
National defence in wars
Blood transfusions

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@Romeo Fabulini,

There's no limit to their rationalizations for all the contradictions in the bible.

LOL

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@cicerone imposter,

Welcome home, CI. How was your trip?

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Quote:

Cicerone said:@RF- There's no limit to their rationalizations for all the contradictions in the bible.

Yes, and the fundies often contradict themselves, for example Neologist is a JW and they believe there's an afterlife, yet HE says there's NO afterlife!
He better watch it or the JW's will kick him out again.. Smile

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Go saddle your unicorn and take a ride, Romeo.

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@neologist,

Quote:

Welcome home, CI. How was your trip?

Do you not know neo that such a question is only permissible from an etiquette point of view when you are in personal intercourse with ci.

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@Setanta,

I hear ya. And I agree that it would be silly to try to claim that either all wars or all corruption were religion-related. But that's not a reason to give them a bye. Imagine if doctors said that since all death isn't cancer-related, we need not try to find a cure for it. Wink

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Do you not know neo that such a question is only permissible from an etiquette point of view when you are in personal intercourse with ci.

CI and I have a special understanding.

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@FBM,

But the wars and corruption being said to be religion-related is an opinion of yours. Religion may be said to be only one of the weapons used.

I don't think that applies in the other case imagined and I'm surprised that I'm expected to think that it does.

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Not sure how many Brits are in the house, but I found this interesting:

Quote:

Nobel Laureates, campaigners, peers, philosophers, broadcasters and authors write open letter to challenge Prime Minister’s ‘Christian country’ claim
April 20th, 2014

Over 50 public figures, including novelists, scientists, broadcasters, campaigners, authors and comedians have written to the Prime Minister challenging his statement on Britain as a Christian country. The letter was organised by the President of the British Humanist Association (BHA) Professor Jim Al-Khalili, theoretical physicist and science broadcaster.

Among those who have signed the letter are Philip Pullman, Ken Follett, Professor Alice Roberts and Sir Terry Pratchett....

‘Apart from in the narrow constitutional sense that we continue to have an established church, we are not a ‘Christian country’. Repeated surveys, polls, and studies show most of us as individuals are not Christian in our beliefs or our religious identities and at a social level, Britain has been shaped for the better by many pre-Christian, non-Christian, and post-Christian forces. We are a plural society with citizens with a range of perspectives and a largely non-religious society. To constantly claim otherwise fosters alienation and division in our society....

https://humanism.org.uk/2014/04/20/nobel-laureates-campaigners-peers-philosophers-broadcasters-authors-write-open-letter-challenge-prime-ministers-christian-country-claim/

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@FBM,

The Brits are decades ahead of the US on religion.

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@FBM,

Quote:

We are a plural society with citizens with a range of perspectives and a largely non-religious society.

"And the range of perspectives includes that of over 50 of us who have, after a lot of phone calls, networking and agreeing the wording of our Round Robin, presented our atheist opposition to the Prime Minister's welcome remarks as they have enabled us all to get our names in the paper again when most of us have been forgotten and neglected for far too long."

Lat them stand for election then they can be questioned on the platform by ordinary members of the public.

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@FBM,

Good luck finding a cure for religion.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Good luck finding a cure for religion.

Well, there's education in critical thinking, but the problem is that those with the disease usually reject the cure. Not to say that every non-theist is an ace at it, either. It's not an easy skill to develop. I'm no ace at it, either, but an undergrad in Philosophy helped me see its value and got me started clearing up bad thinking habits.

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@FBM,

Why didn't you keep it up FB? You would be astounded where it leads to.

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