Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:29 am
@Wilso,
Wilso wrote:

So of the roughly 3000 gods that have been worshipped by humans, what is the most likely? That none of them exist, or the one that each particular believer worships exists. On pure probability, I will assert once more that statements for and against the existence of any god do not possess equal validity. Unless of course you've got a "magical" way of redefining mathematics, probability and logic.



If none of the gods worshiped by humans existed...

...it would have zero impact on whether or not a god or gods actually exist.

Everything may always have existed....or one thing may have existed...and what we call "our universe" may be a result of that one thing.

My feelings are that you are firmly set in a guess that no god or gods exist...and will use "probability" "validity" "magical thinking" and whatever else you have to in order to justify that guess.

Theists do that same thing on the other side of the coin.


FBM...Wilso...gotta go play golf now. We'll talk more when I get back.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:31 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

Setanta wrote:

Quote:
I wouldn't say it ever becomes zero, but I visualize it as an asymptote.


That's a very good point. It is possible to make a joke of one's own skepticism and intellectual honesty by insistence on a negligible possibility. To steal from the Ivory soap advertising gimmick, i'm 99.44% sure there are no gods. Something i find hilarious is that so many self-righteous agnostics dismiss questions about fairies, pixies, elves and other allegations of the existence of supernatural beings, with a contempt for the question which they don't display when the question is whether or not there is a magic sky daddy.


Some people are very bothered by the expression "I do not know." They are terrified of it...and will do almost anything to rationalize the fact that they avoid it like the plague.

I'm not quite following. "make a joke of"? Also, would you mind unpacking that last sentence for me a little?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:44 am
@Wilso,
But "clouded minds" is an ad hom Wilso, but don't worry. FBM won't point it out to you because you're an atheist she approves of.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:44 am
@FBM,
By make a joke of one's skepticism i am referring to what you referred to, that the probability of some things is so low as not to merit further consideration. For example, i don't believe there are any gods because the proposition is so absurd. Whenever this nonsense comes up, i state that i do not believe that there are any gods, and that i don't care. Recently (last couple of years) i have always tried to remember to point out that i find the proposition an absurdity. So agnostics who prance around asserting their intellectual and moral superiority because they are agnostic make a joke of themselves with such a claim. It becomes even more hilarious when they contemptuously dismiss questions about other putative supernatural beings, such as fairies, pixies and elves--displaying a skepticism and intellectual rigor which they don't display when the question is whether or not there is a magic sky daddy.

We are in agreement about the asymptote.
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:48 am
@Setanta,
Ah. I think I follow you now. Gracias. As for me, I don't intend to imply any intellectual or moral superiority. It's just that since I understood Hume's Problem of Induction, it gives me a mental jab when I try to assert absolute knowledge about something. It also leaves one vulnerable to attack from others who know the Problem.
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:50 am
@FBM,
The "hurting" is an ad hom dear.

How do you know anon isn't a Christian dealing with Eboli sufferers in Africa?

People hurt others in every walk of life. You're being a bit prejudiced having it in just for Christians.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:54 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Dragging the discussion down to a personal level just takes the fun out of it for me.


In which case why did you accuse me of a non-existent ad hom and not the ones who not only use them all the time but often post nothing else?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:58 am
@FBM,
Yes, i understand that position. There was a thread started here more than a decade ago in which the author, Portal Star, asserted that agnostics are intellectually and morally superior because they "admit" that they don't know. Portal Star and other agnostics in that thread all suffer, however, from not suspending their disbelief to the same extent in any other questions about supernatural entities as they do when the question is whether or not there are gods. That makes a joke of the claim of any agnostic to skepticism or intellectual honesty. In fact, one of the glaring faults of pushy agnostics is that they are only talking about the question of whether or not there is a god, and even the use of the singular (god as opposed to gods) displays the fixation on a western concept of theism. Essentially, their skepticism and putative intellectual honest have a very narrow focus. This glaring problem of the self-proclaiming agnostic (about whether or not there are any supernatural beings) has been pointed out again and again here to the point that many people simply no longer talk to the so-called agnostics.
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 04:01 am
@Setanta,
Yep. I confess that I sometimes get hooked into arguing whether or not there is a god or gods, but the truth is that I don't really care. When I'm on my game, I keep focus on maladaptive and destructive behavior promoted by religions, rather than the metaphysical questions about existence of this or that. I'm not always on my game, naturally. Wink
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 04:03 am
@Wilso,
Quote:
The fact is Frank, that until someone's presents me with a study showing say, that prayer is as effective as antibiotics in treating illness, then religion remains a pathetic crock of ****.


Hey Wilso--why don't you have a go on the Yabber thread where prayers for Dutchy have been said for months. And still are being.

Do you only feel confident when a supporting claque is around you?

As an atheist I haven't prayed for your fellow Aussie but I don't object to others doing.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 04:08 am
@Wilso,
Quote:
So of the roughly 3000 gods that have been worshipped by humans,


It's been counted Wilso. 30,000 is the accepted figure just for Europe and the Middle East.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 04:42 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Ah. I think I follow you now. Gracias. As for me, I don't intend to imply any intellectual or moral superiority. It's just that since I understood Hume's Problem of Induction, it gives me a mental jab when I try to assert absolute knowledge about something. It also leaves one vulnerable to attack from others who know the Problem.


I used the inductive method in pubs over many years to conclude that atheists, in my experience invariably, have rejected Christian teaching on sexual behaviour in their activities.

I am aware that my conclusion based on many observations is not proof that every atheist has behaved or continues to behave contrary to those teachings but I would be very keen to bet that the next atheist I meet has done or is doing.

I am also aware that my observations do not prove the validity of the inductive method. Animals as well as humans use the method as a matter of course. It is the source of habit. When an experience is contrary to a settled habit we are shocked that our expectations have been falsified.

The same applied to agnostics.
Krumple
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 04:49 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
I used the inductive method in pubs over many years to conclude that atheists, in my experience invariably, have rejected Christian teaching on sexual behaviour in their activities.


This was your logical reasoning? Not only is it laughable but it only proves my point that theists love to demonize natural human characteristics. Sexuality is based on biological impulses through a chemical process. But of course theists never like to accept the actual facts or reality, they just love to demonize anything that deals with human life.

Atheism has nothing to do with sexuality. It has everything to do with the lack of supporting evidence for the claims that theists make.
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 04:54 am
@FBM,
Neither am i. In the western so-called agnostic, there's a freudian slip which reveals much--they speak so frequently of the existence of god--singular. They betray the vestige of a monotheistic culture which they just can't let go.

When it comes ot the "sins" of orgaanized religion, though, i try to be honest. Very few wars ate truly and exclusively religious in character. For war to be sustained for any length of time, you need money, lots and lots of money; and you need a political motive, which is usually the acquisition of power. Pope Innocent III could not get a war against the co-called Cathars going until he came up with the brilliant idea of declaring the estates of "heretical" lords to be forfeit to the Church, and offered those estaes to those who would take the cross in what became known as the Albigensian Crusade. A few great lords in northern France and a great many down-at-the-heels small time aristocrats rushed to sign up on those terms. Similarly, Cardinal Richelieu who effectively ruled France at the time, after the death of Gustav II Adolph of Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus) paid huge subsidies to Protestant Sweden to fight the Imperialist, of Catholic Austria, because he was more interested in the balance of power in Germany than he was in the number of Protestants living there.

Credit where it is due, too. In both Christianity and Islam, there is a strong charitable ethos within their communities. The most effective NGOs in social welfare in the United States are Caholic Social Services and Lutheran Social Services. They often do a good deal more for those in need than government does, especially for families and single mothers.
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 05:09 am
@Krumple,
It was my logical reasoning and I did allow that it might not be correct in every case. It is only laughable to a certain extent. It is quite well known that Christians are superior to atheists at making jokes about sexuality, marriage and the opposite sex and that atheists are very serious about those things.

Quote:
Sexuality is based on biological impulses through a chemical process.


That is true for animals, which is what we are, and for youthful enthusiasm. After a certain point psychological impulses become more dominant.

I have read Freud and Reich on the matter. And others. They considered the inhibition of the sexual impulse to lead to both physical and mental illness but they failed to offer an alternative. As is the usual case on threads like this.

It is a very delicate problem as is highlighted by the obvious discretion so blatantly observed on here.



0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 05:17 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:

spendius wrote:
I used the inductive method in pubs over many years to conclude that atheists, in my experience invariably, have rejected Christian teaching on sexual behaviour in their activities.


This was your logical reasoning? Not only is it laughable but it only proves my point that theists love to demonize natural human characteristics. Sexuality is based on biological impulses through a chemical process. But of course theists never like to accept the actual facts or reality, they just love to demonize anything that deals with human life.

Atheism has nothing to do with sexuality. It has everything to do with the lack of supporting evidence for the claims that theists make.


Generally, those who complain sexual morals, are those who aren't getting any.
Krumple
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 05:42 am
@Wilso,
Wilso wrote:
Generally, those who complain sexual morals, are those who aren't getting any.


Yeah I can see that. I just thought it was their self loathing and hatred for their life that makes them dislike anything that is pleasant in this existence. So since they hate their existence they want and expect everyone else to.
hingehead
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 05:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If none of the gods worshiped by humans existed...

...it would have zero impact on whether or not a god or gods actually exist.


Huh? I'm sure that's not what you meant to say or I'm reading it wrong.

Parsing it I'm getting:

If X doesn't exist it has no impact on whether or not X exists.

Sounds fallacious. But it's late here.
hingehead
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 05:54 am
Well it's Easter. I live in largely Xtian society (at least historically).

So thanks for the day off. Got lots of house and yardwork done.

No neighbours glared at me for not going to church.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2014 05:56 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

Ah. I think I follow you now. Gracias. As for me, I don't intend to imply any intellectual or moral superiority. It's just that since I understood Hume's Problem of Induction, it gives me a mental jab when I try to assert absolute knowledge about something. It also leaves one vulnerable to attack from others who know the Problem.


What Setanta and many other atheists do, FBM, is to arbitrarily and gratuitously describe the notion of gods as a proposition too absurd for consideration...and then try to pass off their blind guess that there are no gods as the result of mathematical considerations of probability.

It is a joke, of course.

The question of what is the REALITY is beyond our comprehension...and asserting there are no gods is every bit as illogical and self-serving as asserting there are gods.

"I do not know" is the intellectually honest position...and disturbs those people who do not have the ethics to acknowledge that. Although it seems lack of ethics is not the only reason for this behavior on the part of some atheists. It seems an out-of-control ego is a part of it.


 

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