Olivier5
 
  2  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 02:22 pm
@Thomas,
It's intuitively obvious as long as you remember the respective masses and energies involved, and keeping in mind that the type of information thermodynamics talk about and measure has very little to see with the Iliad and the Odyssey, or with an episode of Inspector Derick for that matter. The amount of information a thermodynamist is able to recognize and measure in, say, an edition of the Illiad, is related to the potential chemical energy stored in it and released when burning the book. A themodynamist sees a book as equal to its calorific potential. He ca't tell you if one edition is better researched or more faithful to the original Greek than another.

Likewise, all the beauty and diversity we see in life, from a biological or even artistic standpoint, feature very low on the thermodynamist radar, on a par with the organic chemistry soup in your average refinery cracking reactor.

Thermodynamic set boundaries to what chemical reactions can exist in a living cell, but they are not the right tool to evaluate the complexity of biological information (e.g. DNA, RNA, etc.), let alone the result of our thinking processes. Physics and chemistry concepts, by nature of their focus, totally short-sell information.
neologist
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 02:33 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I understand that you were questioning the appropriateness of that failed attempt at metaphor, and if you were honest, you'd acknowledge that i defended you to EB.
You are right. I should have acknowledged your comment. And, you must know by now that, while I do not always agree with you, I have great respect for your comments. Even when you accuse me of being snotty. (I always muzzle my sneezes.)
Germlat
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 02:35 pm
@neologist,
How do you muster such self-restraint...I'm in awe of you
neologist
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 02:37 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
Are you suggesting that jesus could see through time? Because surely there weren't 14,000 denominations of christianity during his time. So how could the fig tree parable be about "the plethora of nominal christian religions"? Or are you just making up ****? Probably the latter.
Since Setanta made a similar point, I wonder if perhaps you do not think I believe Jesus to have been a prophet? You may not believe so. It is, however, a tenet of the NT.
neologist
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 02:38 pm
@Germlat,
Germlat wrote:
How do you muster such self-restraint...I'm in awe of you
When I'm done here, I go bench press the gym. Very Happy
Germlat
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 02:40 pm
@neologist,
I like that about you. You seem to have the restraint to respect people. Your ideas vary so greatly from others on this forum yet, you don't seem to possess the need to insult. Bravo.
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 02:51 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
It's intuitively obvious as long as you remember the respective masses and energies involved, and keeping in mind that the type of information thermodynamics talk about and measure has very little to see with the Iliad and the Odyssey,

You're mistaken. Information, as measured in bits and bytes, is the reciprocal of physical entropy as defined in statistical physics, which in turn is physically the same as entropy according to your macroscopic definition. (It is far from intuitively obvious that the statistical definition of entropy and the macroscopic definition of entropy describe the same physical phenomenon --- but it turns out that they do.)

Olivier5 wrote:
It's intuitively obvious as long as you remember the respective masses and energies involved,

Okay, let's keep that in mind. The mass of the sun is 300,000 times greater than that of Earth, arguing that its entropy is greater. (Arguing it in a vague sense, by the way: mass figures nowhere into any definition of entropy.) Meanwhile, the temperature in the part of the sun where nuclear fusion happens is 50,000 times greater than the temperature on the part of the Earth where life happens (arguing that the entropy of the sun is smaller)

Absent an explicit model, then, how are you going to tell which effect dominates? And while your gut is feeling out the answer to this question, be sure to let it know that we're not talking about aggregate or average entropy; we're talking about marginal changes in entropy. It is far from intuitively obvious that the marginal values are proportional to the aggregate values. For what it's worth, I see no reason to believe that they are.
Krumple
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 02:54 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Since Setanta made a similar point, I wonder if perhaps you do not think I believe Jesus to have been a prophet? You may not believe so. It is, however, a tenet of the NT.


He can't be a prophet. His behavior does not match. Like I have mentioned before. If Jesus was aware of what he was doing then why would he ask god why he was being forsaken before he was about to be murdered? It doesn't make any sense. Clearly there is a disconnect.

There is so much jumbled stuff between how modern christians assume characteristics of Jesus and how the new testament describes him. It is never mentioned that he is god or god incarnate. This is something that was invented later, but it doesn't stop christians from assuming that it did.

I don't think Jesus was any more of a prophet than I am. And well we both know that I am not a prophet at all, well neither was Jesus. You probably won't like that assessment but there is NOTHING in the new testament that supports that he was a prophet of any kind.
Germlat
 
  2  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 03:04 pm
@Krumple,
Jesus didn't fulfill Jewish prophecy. Messiah..there had been others. Messiah according to Jewish culture, is not synonymous with divinity.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 03:15 pm
@Germlat,
Sometimes its even fun.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 03:24 pm
@InfraBlue,
Take this IB. Setanta wrote--

Quote:
To allege that cultivars are not products of natural selection is to indulge that silly religious tenet that man is special, and set apart from the rest of the natural world. Man is a part of the natural world, and the cultivation of plants is, therefore, an agent of natural selection.


Which is the position of James Lovelock whose Gaia ideas were all the rage with the chattering classes a few years ago. Grauniad dinner parties style of thing. Egos bubbling their way to a froth. Professor Gray has been blowing on the ashes more recently. To good effect I gather.

All the quote is is just a reassertion, in revised words, of Setanta's starting position. Which is flagged up with the intemperate and anti-intellectual " silly religious tenet" phrase which detracts from his argument quite profoundly. He needn't tell us it actually because his starting position requires it of him. He has no other conclusion. That he feels the need to tell us suggests he didn't think we could make that simple deduction. Which is to say that he doesn't think we have all our neurons activated.

And the argument claims that the " silly religious tenets" are a part of the evolutionary process because there is nothing else they can be by internal logic. They are cultivars of behavioural modification and thus products of natural selection. Setanta cannot argue otherwise unless he draws a distinction between two sorts of cultivars which I will argue he can't.

And because he can't is the reason he ignores my posts. His troll baloney is a smokescreen for the infant's class.

He has given Christianity a clean bill of health on his own logic. Because fitness is the ability to survive, as Setanta has asserted, and here we are back in growth, which some say is a delusion, and thus thriving never mind surviving, he has no alternative than to approve.

He is like a cock pheasant complaining about the colour of its feathers.

0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 03:27 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Information, as measured in bits and bytes, is the reciprocal of physical entropy as defined in statistical physics,

Link for that? I hear talks of entropy in information theory but it seems more like a concept borrowed by one branch of science from another, and applied quite differently in practice. I mean, thermodynamics are about heat and pressure, and the second law applies only to closed system evolving towards an equilibrium.

Life, or the verses of Rainer Maria Rilke, are out of scope. The only equilibrium life is tending to is death. As for poetry, I don't even want to go there...
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 03:33 pm
@InfraBlue,
I'm not convinced that ""all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds" is tautological. I think only people who complain about the price of gas might think it so. Or their wife's spending prowess.

Quote:
The idea of "love thy neighbor" does not collapse by pointing out the unnecessariness of those delusions.


The idea has already collapsed. The flags, the banners, the parades, the ceremonies, and the ringing tones of "the greatest country in the world" are proof of that. And what about the bankers? And the chap next door whose dog barks half the night.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 03:41 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Meanwhile, the temperature in the part of the sun where nuclear fusion happens is 50,000 times greater than the temperature on the part of the Earth where life happens (arguing that the entropy of the sun is smaller)


Temp is only the DENOMINATOR. On the NUMERATOR SIDE OF THE ENTROPY EQUATION, YOU HAVE ENERGY.... Now, how does the amount of energy in the sun compares with the energy stored in earth, DO you reckon? Isn't it BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of times larger?

Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 03:55 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Quote:
Information, as measured in bits and bytes, is the reciprocal of physical entropy as defined in statistical physics,

Link for that?

Sure. This review paper (PDF), published in the American Journal of Physics, explains the connection in detail.

By the way, thanks for making me read this, as it uncovered another (non-fatal) error of mine. Information and entropy turn out to be negatives of one another, not inverses as I had originally thought. As it turns out, I erred in the direction of harming my point: Now the only difference between I and -S is a proportionality constant connecting Boltzmann's statistical definition of entropy with the macroscopic definition from experimental physics. The relation between information-science information and physical entropy is even tighter than I thought.
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 04:03 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Temp is only the DENOMINATOR. On the NUMERATOR SIDE OF THE ENTROPY EQUATION, YOU HAVE ENERGY....

Your yelling may strengthen your voice, but it does not strengthen your argument. You continue to insist on calculating the stock of energy stored in the sun when the key to rebutting the creationists' thermodynamic challenge is the flow of energy from the sun to the Earth, and the increase of entropy in the sun that goes into creating it. This flow of energy is the same for both bodies.
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 04:12 pm
@Thomas,
In a fit of absent-mindednes, Thomas wrote:
Information and entropy turn out to be negatives of one another,

The same, actually.

Thomas wrote:
As it turns out, I erred in the direction of harming my point: Now the only difference between I and -S is a proportionality constant connecting Boltzmann's statistical definition of entropy with the macroscopic definition from experimental physics.

Change "-S" to "S". The rest of my post still stands. Obviously I'm in severe need of coffee. See you later!
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 05:12 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
To think coherently about nature, we must mistrust gut feelings.


There you go folks. We are left with experts. Like Thomas. You're a bit of a nonny don't you know? Fancy trusting your gut feelings!!

The folklore wisdom about the "mad scientist" is out of order because the scientists say so. It is only a gut feeling which can be easily eradicated in one of farmerman's re-education facilities.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 05:21 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
on the thermodynamist radar, on a par with the organic chemistry soup


And the thermowhatsit is a component of the soup doing his best to deny it.

When do we get to the fresh squeeze every night chosen from a gallery which our productivity has entitled us to peruse?
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2014 05:58 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:
Temp is only the DENOMINATOR. On the NUMERATOR SIDE OF THE ENTROPY EQUATION, YOU HAVE ENERGY....

Your yelling may strengthen your voice, but it does not strengthen your argument. You continue to insist on calculating the stock of energy stored in the sun when the key to rebutting the creationists' thermodynamic challenge is the flow of energy from the sun to the Earth, and the increase of entropy in the sun that goes into creating it. This flow of energy is the same for both bodies.


The creationists argument doesn't require physics for the purpose of rebuttal. It only requires sanity.
 

Related Topics

The tolerant atheist - Discussion by Tuna
Another day when there is no God - Discussion by edgarblythe
church of atheism - Discussion by daredevil
Can An Atheist Have A Soul? - Discussion by spiritual anrkst
THE MAGIC BUS COMES TO CANADA - Discussion by Setanta
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Atheism
  3. » Page 474
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.1 seconds on 05/04/2024 at 03:56:34