Atheism

@Thomas,

Some times assumptions are based on the best available data. After two billion years of evolution, i think it is reasonable to make that assumption.

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@Thomas,

Quote:

Size doesn't matter when it comes to matters of energy and information.

Think this over Tom. Size always matters, especially in science, and in this case, the "size" (aka quantity) of energy and entropy of systems as they go through various transformations is precisely what thermodynamics are all about. Entropy is expressed in joule/kelvin, not in qualitative terms...

Whatever neg-entropy is accumulated or maintained by life on earth is probably of ridiculous overal size (quantity) as compared to the amount of entropy put out by the sun. Hence entropy rises in the solar system as a whole, and thus the second law of thermodynamics does not contradict evolution.

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@Olivier5,

I disagree; size doesn't matter. Just look at the atoms as compared to the universe. It's the knowledge of our environment that counts whether at the atomic level or at the universe we understand as humans on planet earth.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Well, to answer the question asked by Thomas, size does matter. Maybe for some other question it doesn't.

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@Olivier5,

Thomas wrote,

Quote:

Size doesn't matter when it comes to matters of energy and information.

My answer stands.

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@Olivier5,

Another consideration is that the solar system is not closed: a lot of solar energy leaves the system and is lost into inter-stellar space.

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@cicerone imposter,

Are you replying to me or to Thomas?

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Quote:

Unless they're pushing their delusions on you, and most of them don't, what's the harm in letting people continue with their delusions if it makes them happy?

So is it a delusion that all these magic wands were waved and, lo and behold, in the flash of an evolutionary glance to one side, you got ice-cream cornets sprinkled with hundreds and thousands just by winding your the window down with the push button at a stop on the highway and handing over some coupons the government gave you to keep you out of mischief, starting from having to climb a mountain to find some cool water. With no shoes and be very glad of it. Breech cloth flapping in the burning gale.

Is that a delusion? Who would criticise a conjurer as good as that? And most of us would have been rabble until quite recently. The chances of any of us being toffs is pretty remote I should have thought.

Facts is facts. No question.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

To you; you're the one who claimed what Thomas said was your response to.

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@cicerone imposter,

Maybe Tom interpreted "size" as meaning "volume". I meant it as synonymous to "amount", "quantity". Since the issue raised by Tom was about the quantity of entropy in the solar system, it follows that the notion of "quantity" is not entirely foreign to it...

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Thomas said,

Quote:

matters of energy and information

.

Information means "all inclusive."

Well, that's how I interpret it, but you'll have to ask Thomas to clarify.

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@cicerone imposter,

Information can be quantified and measured, too. But indeed, let's see what Tomas has to say.

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@Olivier5,

What does all this entropy fanny have to do with what it's like being an atheist and how we can better win adherents to our cause.

If the assets of all the churches were sold off and the priests, pimps and pastors put to productive work it would likely clear the deficit. Assuming there's only one deficit.

With the debt ceiling set where it is we could borrow the $18 trillion all over again.

Think of the temptations we could offer with that. Getting our ratings up won't be done rabbiting on about the sun's ******* entropy even if it does allow a certain flaunting of our pseudo-scientific credentials.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
Unless they're pushing their delusions on you, and most of them don't, what's the harm in letting people continue with their delusions if it makes them happy?

So is it a delusion that all these magic wands were waved and, lo and behold, in the flash of an evolutionary glance to one side, you got ice-cream cornets sprinkled with hundreds and thousands just by winding your the window down with the push button at a stop on the highway and handing over some coupons the government gave you to keep you out of mischief, starting from having to climb a mountain to find some cool water. With no shoes and be very glad of it. Breech cloth flapping in the burning gale.

Is that a delusion? Who would criticise a conjurer as good as that? And most of us would have been rabble until quite recently. The chances of any of us being toffs is pretty remote I should have thought.

Facts is facts. No question.

Yeah, all of this built upon delusions, and these delusions--I'm sure you're championing the Christian ones here--built upon previous delusions.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Think this over Tom. Size always matters, especially in science, and in this case, the "size" (aka quantity) of energy and entropy of systems as they go through various transformations is precisely what thermodynamics are all about. Entropy is expressed in joule/kelvin, not in qualitative terms...

In that case, you shouldn't have to rely on a qualitative argument yourself. Just show me how many Joules per Kelvin the sun produces each day, what fraction of that entropy comes from producing the photons that end up on Earth, and how many Joules per Kelvin life on Earth subtracts. I'm not expecting an exact number. (I don't think that's possible because "life on Earth" is a vague term for physical purposes). But your back-of-the-envelope calculation should be "quantitative-enough" to show that the entropy produced in the sun dominates, is quite enough. "But, but, but the Sun is so LARGE!" isn't a conclusive argument.

I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong, just that your argument doesn't logically lead to it.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Information can be quantified and measured, too.

Indeed. Ever since Claude Shannon (1948) established information theory as a scientific discipline, information (I) has been defined in terms of entropy (S) by the simplest possible arithmetic relation: I = 1/S.

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

Yeah, all of this built upon delusions, and these delusions--I'm sure you're championing the Christian ones here--built upon previous delusions.

That's not an answer IB. I admitted there are magic wands in play.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Quote:

In that case, you shouldn't have to rely on a qualitative argument yourself. Just show me how many Joules per Kelvin the sun produces each day, what fraction of that entropy comes from producing the photons that end up on Earth, and how many Joules per Kelvin life on Earth subtracts. I'm not expecting an exact number. (I don't think that's possible because "life on Earth" is a vague term for physical purposes). But your back-of-the-envelope calculation should be "quantitative-enough" to show that the entropy produced in the sun dominates, is quite enough. "But, but, but the Sun is so LARGE!" isn't a conclusive argument.

I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong, just that your argument doesn't logically lead to it.

And--

Quote:

Indeed. Ever since Claude Shannon (1948) established information theory as a scientific discipline, information (I) has been defined in terms of entropy (S) by the simplest possible arithmetic relation: I = 1/S.

And then you wonder why we atheists are perceived as cranks.

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Quote:

Panzade posted:

Jesus was quite clear that a sheaf of degrees and diplomas count for zilch when it comes to defining "intelligence"-
Jesus said:- "I thank you Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, and for revealing them to little children" (Matt 11:25-27)

For example atheist eggheads such as Dawkins and Sagan prove him right, they've both been married 3 times because they didn't even have the brains to hold their marriages together..
Me, I prefer to be a happy fool.. Smile

"Become a fool by the worlds standards in order to become wise" (1 Cor 3:18 )

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Quote:

In that case, you shouldn't have to rely on a qualitative argument yourself. Just show me how many Joules per Kelvin the sun produces each day, what fraction of that entropy comes from producing the photons that end up on Earth, and how many Joules per Kelvin life on Earth subtracts

I'm not making a qualitative argument. It's an intuitive but quantitative argument based on the relative sizes of the sun vs. life (total biomass). We humans and all other earthly species taken together represent a totally negligible amount of the stuff that exists and happen out there in the SOLAR SYSTEM alone, let alone the universe. So whatever the physical metric you use to measure it (mass, energy, entropy...), and whatever the thermodynamic computation you want to make at the level of the entire solar system, whether it is about entropy, information, energy or whatever... chances are that the oh so rich and diverse phenomena we call "life" are not going to make much of a difference in the result.

At the level of the solar system alone (which is not closed anyway), and from a purely thermodynamic viewpoint, life is simply negligible.

1 Reply

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