Atheism

@Wilso,

Quote:

You know the problem with the regular (and quite boring) references to Mao and Stalin. Not once has anyone, ever, shown that their actions were motivated by atheism. Hitler was a Catholic. So I could equally say that his Catholicism motivated his murder of millions. Would I be correct? Probably not. They worshipped power. Any reference to their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, is simply dribbling ****.

It's a very difficult argument to make, either way, and my point to neo was that it is unfair to say: Christianity hasn't brought eternal peace. Atheism hasn't brought eternal peace either, last time I checked.

Now, for the sake of the argument, Nazism was a religion and Hitler its High Priest. I agree with that. His Catholicism could however explain in part his antisemitism.

As for Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot and the likes, any persecution by these atheist rulers of religious people and institutions should be considered a direct result of their atheism, at the least.

There is also a (IMO valid) argument that their atheism sometimes emboldened some leaders to do massive crimes. The crimes against humanity of the 20th century are two or three orders of magnitude above those of the previous centuries, and they coincide with the "death of God"... E.g. would Mao not have invaded Tibet if he had been a devout Buddhist?... Well, maybe Mao would have had a different form of Buddhism and would have attacked Tibet to convert them by force, who knows? Alternative history is a very shaky ground.

Like, would Stalin have fed his people better if he had been a pious Orthodox???

What we can observe though, is that the Russian revolution was violent from the start. It made great fodder of human life under Lenin already. How were these deaths justified? By ideology, by an atheist ideology which says that killing enemies of the people is a-okay.

Voltaire once said that he would not like to rule a nation of atheists because he would fear for his life at every moment. A nation not fearing hell as the ultimate punishment for its crimes, is what he dreaded. Ironically the French have become a nation of atheist but along the way, we did kill many people, including many priests e.g. during the French revolution. We also killed many people for religious reasons. Suffice to say that religions, just like other ideologies, including some atheist ideologies, can motivate and justify criminal behavior, and in that, they are dangerous.

I believe some religions, or interpretations of religions, are more inherently prone to violence than others, just like some atheist ideologies, such as communism, are more prone to violence than others.

1 Reply

@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

...I don't recall ever feeling any community in church activities. ...

Same here, and I was also raised in the Bible Belt. Church was just something that happened once a week, then we all went our separate ways. Even when I did see other church members away from church, I never felt that we had any connection based on the church. I didn't lose anything when I stopped going.

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I've tried various churches over the years but never found one I liked.
For example there's a Pentecostalist church near me where they wave their arms in the air and jabber in "tongues" like monkeys, what a waste of a good building, it ought to be turned into something useful like a bingo hall or bollywood cinema.. Smile

Some of my christian mates used to invite me to join them doing the rounds of the church circuit but I ended up walking out of them all in disgust after 10 minutes, and at one place I walked out even before the service had begun!
It turned out my mates had been betting amongst themselves how many minutes it'd be before I walked out of places.
I'd get up and start walking and one of them would say "There he goes!" and they'd start ROFLing like crazy.. Smile

Another time, I went to an Alpha Course meeting with them but didn't like the atmosphere in the entrance hall so turned round and walked off, and one of the tutors chased me down the street calling "What's wrong? Come back!" as if I'd just escaped from Colditz but I managed to give him the slip and made a home run.. Smile

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@Wilso,

Quote:

My experience with people who complain about sexual morals is it mainly comes from people who aren't getting any.

My experience is that getting too much provides insights which clearly demonstrate why sexual morals are necessary and that only people who don't get enough are unaware of the dangers because it is a low-cost operation for them and can even be turned to account with insecure ladies.

The old joke about a wife being an item you screw on the bed and which does the housework says it better.

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@Wilso,

Quote:

I often notice that sex seems to come up in his "arguments".

You are very observant Wilso. The reason sex comes up in what I say is because it is the only matter of any consequence in this debate despite denials to the contrary which I will admit are understandable.

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@FBM,

FBM wrote:

chai2 wrote:
...I don't recall ever feeling any community in church activities. ...

Same here, and I was also raised in the Bible Belt. Church was just something that happened once a week, then we all went our separate ways. Even when I did see other church members away from church, I never felt that we had any connection based on the church. I didn't lose anything when I stopped going.

Can I make a guess that you're more of an introvert?

I'm what I've self termed "a gregarious introvert". No problem talking to just about anyone, not shy, just don't need to feed off other people to feel complete and happy.

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@Thomas,

Quote:

Personally, I think it's about time they ranted about the hobby of non-stamp-collecting.

But that wouldn't be controversial and stimulating. Media would not find such an infantile idea very useful. Media needs a sex starved audience.

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@chai2,

Very much an introvert, yes. Come to think of it, I hate the feeling of community, so maybe that's why I never felt it in church. Wink

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With regard to what Chai had to say, i suspect that the image of the U.S. being in the throes of wild-eyed holy rollers is a case of the squeaky wheel principle in operation. They make a lot of noise, and people who don't live in the U.S. get a skewed impression of the society being hag-ridden by bible thumpers. My experience is that most people, while usually polite, don't pay any attention to them, other than to avoid them if they can.

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@Setanta,

Sounds about right, Set.

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@FBM,

Can I get an Amen?

uh...er...nevermind.

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@chai2,

Amen, brethren and sistren!!

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

As for Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot and the likes, any persecution by these atheist rulers of religious people and institutions should be considered a direct result of their atheism, at the least.

Why? What evidence do you have? None. You're just stating an opinion. It's my opinion that they attacked religious institutions because such institutions were a threat to their power. It had nothing to do with their own beliefs, or lack thereof. It's a common tactic the religious use to attack atheism. Once again attempting to ascribe to atheism a philosophy. Any attempt to do so has all the validity of claiming abstinence is a sexual position.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

With regard to what Chai had to say, i suspect that the image of the U.S. being in the throes of wild-eyed holy rollers is a case of the squeaky wheel principle in operation.

Probably right. The impression outside of the US (here at least anyway), is that atheists are highly maligned and persecuted.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

Wilso wrote:

Exactly the same. I see people, (mainly from the US), comment on the loss of community when "becoming an atheist".

Really?
I'm not arguing with you, but I've never heard anyone say that.

Then again, as Set mentioned, the subject of religion, or G(g)ods rarely come up in my personal life.

I guess this would be surprising to some as I live in Texas, but really it's only once in a while anyone even brings up the subject.

Re loss of community, I was raised a Roman Catholic in the NE U.S., but at some point in teenage years stopped going to church, except as required at the Catholic high school and grade school I went to. We all went together to Mass at certain times, I forget how often.
I never found any comfort of any kind going to church. It was just an hour wasted of my time.

I don't recall ever feeling any community in church activities. The friends I had in the Catholic grade school and high school I went to was never based on religious beliefs. Church just always felt really unnecessary, and worse was keeping me from sleeping in on Sundays.

I've seen it on this forum. I'm not saying it happens to everyone who "becomes an atheist". Just that I can't relate to it all, since the last time I actually attended a sermon, my age was in single figures.

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@Wilso,

Re idea the religious persecute non-religious...

The thing is Wilso, the people who are the pentecostal, mega-church goers usually hang with each other. Conversely, if you're not, your friends likely aren't either. It's not something that comes up in conversation really.

One of the few times I ever found it encroaching on my life was when I lived in Okeechobee Fla. I worked at a nursing home in the Social Services Dept, so obviously became friendly with many family members, many of whom lived nearby.

This woman and her daughter upon find out I was separated from my then husband asked me what I did "all weekend" (as if I couldn't do things without a husband). I didn't want to tell her that I left directly from work every Friday to drive 100 miles and have wild sex with a man I kicked my husband out for, who had left his wife for me, until late Sunday evening, so I just said "Oh, I keep busy."
For several weeks in a row she got progressively presistent in asking me to go her church, which was one of those all day affairs. When I finally got direct with her in refusing her invitations, she got very unfriendly, and it changed her attitude toward me while I was at work. Then again, it was just a messed up community of gossips anyway. Didn't want to be there, and got out as soon as I could. I didn't feel isolated, I felt pissed.
Again, if I were the type of person who needed a lot of social interaction, I guess I would have felt isolated anyway there, as I never had much in common with most of the people there. Very strange place.

That was an aberration rather than the norm though. People keep their beliefs to themselves at work, only mentioning church mostly if they are talking about some social activity they participated in, or just as a very general thing.

I think it's worse in small towns.

I don't think any of my neighbors go to church, maybe one of them, not sure.
It seems to me young adults are much less interested in religion too.

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Incidentally, we holy men don't do "sex".
It's been 12 years since my last -ahem- "romantic liason" and even that was nothing to write home about, all I could manage was a few twitches down there followed by a half-hearted dribble, I suppose I'm subconsciously fussy about who I give my precious sperm to.. Smile

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@Wilso,

Quote:

It's my opinion that they attacked religious institutions because such institutions were a threat to their power. It had nothing to do with their own beliefs, or lack thereof. It's a common tactic the religious use to attack atheism. Once again attempting to ascribe to atheism a philosophy. Any attempt to do so has all the validity of claiming abstinence is a sexual position.

There are atheist philosophies, whether you like it or not. Atheism is not just, for most of us anyway, an absence of belief. It often goes with a set of beliefs such as that religions are bad things, in the grand scheme of things.

In the specific case of communism, religion is considered the opium of the people and it needs to be physically eliminated if you're serious about the whole revolutionary project. Thus there is at least one atheist philosophy -- the only one that has so far assumed a political role of world-wide importance -- that is prone to religious persecutions.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

A 'low T' Romeo? Hence the disapproval of the Capulets

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:

There are atheist philosophies,

As many as there are atheists. The point is that there isn't one you can ascribe to all atheists. Which is the point we've been trying to make. Maybe you need to take some reading comprehension classes.

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