joefromchicago
 
  2  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 01:47 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This is my religion.

No it's not. At best it's a series of trite aphorisms.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 01:47 pm
Atheist Edgar Blythe posted a while back saying he once ripped up a Bible.
Lenin said "Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism”

So I can't help wondering if many atheists are commies and nazis..Wink

Nazis burning books they didn't like-
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/nazi-bookburn_zpsce39296a.jpg~original
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 01:48 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
How would you define "religious", then?

Faith without works is dead.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 01:52 pm
Quote:
Coldjoint said: Faith without works is dead.

What sort of "works" exactly?
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 01:55 pm
I have to agree with Joe. Religion invokes the supernatural, as in gods.
coldjoint
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 01:58 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
What sort of "works" exactly?


Walking the walk. A truly Christian person is far and few between.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:11 pm
@panzade,
My point is that there's nothing wrong with beliefs, and thus there's no need for euphemisms. If you believe there is no god then that's your belief. What's wrong with that? No need for another word which will only murk the meaning. One "concludes" based on an examination of strong evidence. There is no strong evidence about anything supernatural, by definition, so any pronouncement about the supernatural is in essence a belief, not a conclusion.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:17 pm
@maxdancona,
I would call your outlook "spiritual" more than "religious". Religion does imply some organization, some structure, a church or equivalent. Not that it's very important... Bottom line is: Atheists need not be narrowly materialist.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:18 pm
It may be people don't like the word "belief" because it is used by many as a synonym for "faith."
maxdancona
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:20 pm
@edgarblythe,
There are a lot of things that are supernatural that aren't gods. Supernatural simply means something that transcends nature... i.e. that can't be explained by nature or science or reason.

Do you have children Edgar?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:29 pm
@edgarblythe,
Nothing wrong with the word "faith" either, as far as I can see... As long as you don't impose your faith onto others of course, including your children. That's often where people with strong faith tend to tick me off.

Same with genital mutilation: if it was strictly limited to consenting adults, I couldn't care less. If an adult wants to get rid of his foreskin or her clit, or any other part of his/her genitals, that's his/her choice. The problem is forcing it on to kids.

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:31 pm
My children have nothing to do with any of this.
panzade
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:49 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
My point is that there's nothing wrong with beliefs

Agreed
Quote:
and thus there's no need for euphemisms

A conclusion isn't a euphemism for a belief.
Quote:
If you believe there is no god then that's your belief.

No, it's my conclusion. If I believed in God, that would be my belief.
Quote:
No need for another word which will only murk the meaning

It's not murking my meaning.
Quote:
so any pronouncement about the supernatural is in essence a belief,

Exactly!
coldjoint
 
  0  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:50 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
My children have nothing to do with any of this.


'Atta boy. Edgar.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:52 pm
@edgarblythe,
Of course they do.... assuming you feel about your children the same way that I feel about mine.

When I look at my children, I feel a depth of emotion about their importance in the universe, I feel sure that the billions of years of the Universe history from the Big Bang to every Galaxy happened so that my children could exist. They bring meaning to all of this. I am sure you at least understand this feeling... they explain existence itself.

There are two ways to understand this...

Looking from a purely rational point of view, this is the result of electro-chemical processes happening in my brain, processes that evolved over millions of years through a process of natural selection simply because these feeling helped certain species of primates survive across generations.

Or, I can look at the life of my children (and yours) as miraculous. I feel that they are precious miracles because they are miracles... that human children have a meaning that transcends proteins or DNA or brain chemistry.

To hold the second view, that there is something more to life than a set of chemical reactions, you must accept the supernatural. It is the belief that there is something beyond science and reason (which is the very definition of supernatural).

Do you believe in the supernatural when you look at your children Edgar?

I don't believe in God... that is why I am an athiest.
I do believe that life is miraculous and that human life is immensely valuable... that is why I am religious.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:53 pm
@panzade,
Quote:
Quote:
so any pronouncement about the supernatural is in essence a belief,

Exactly!

Including pronouncements about the lack of anything supernatural, of course...
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:54 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I would be willing to accept a plausible definition of god, if one were offered. So far, no one has ever come up with one.


That is incorrect. What Setanta means is that no one he doesn't have on Ignore has come up with one.

Go is a personification of the wisdom of the ages. That is a plausible definition. I have posted it on threads Setanta pretends to debate on but he has me on ignore which leads him to declare, as if a fact, what he has declared. And it is false.

The definition is only false if the wisdom of the ages is false. Which is to say that our Christian culture is false. And an evolutionist has to say that it is because Christian morality is counter to evolutionary forces. In fact those forces are the very reason for Christian morality because they were tried through trackless ages and found wanting and very markedly so for the people who wrote the scriptures and first promoted them and who were looking for ways to end their continuous suffering.

A piece of bread standing proxy for the countless animals and humans slaughtered on the stinking altars was a giant step forward from an economic point of view.

Crispy fried bacon is so good that if it is allowed to eat it then it will naturally follow that all the pastures will be full of pigs and the grass will cease to be an important resource. The cow is taboo in India because it was so important and the first famine would see it gone.

The idea that the religious prescriptions have no basis in practical survival can only be entertained by a mind that thinks it knows everything and is the property of a superior being.

An atheist can accept that. But he needs to show that those prescriptions are no longer what is needed for survival in the long term, which is all prophets are interested in, and offer an alternative.

Setanta has me ignored because he knows that stumps him. It hasn't anything to do with me being "spurious" or a "troll" or a "schmuck". That stuff is just putting up a mist for the gumps.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 02:58 pm
@spendius,
You're better off for being one some people's iggy list.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 03:22 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Of course they do.... assuming you feel about your children the same way that I feel about mine.

When I look at my children, I feel a depth of emotion about their importance in the universe, I feel sure that the billions of years of the Universe history from the Big Bang to every Galaxy happened so that my children could exist. They bring meaning to all of this. I am sure you at least understand this feeling... they explain existence itself.

There are two ways to understand this...

Looking from a purely rational point of view, this is the result of electro-chemical processes happening in my brain, processes that evolved over millions of years through a process of natural selection simply because these feeling helped certain species of primates survive across generations.

Or, I can look at the life of my children (and yours) as miraculous. I feel that they are precious miracles because they are miracles... that human children have a meaning that transcends proteins or DNA or brain chemistry.

To hold the second view, that there is something more to life than a set of chemical reactions, you must accept the supernatural. It is the belief that there is something beyond science and reason (which is the very definition of supernatural).

Do you believe in the supernatural when you look at your children Edgar?

I don't believe in God... that is why I am an athiest.
I do believe that life is miraculous and that human life is immensely valuable... that is why I am religious.




I don't see a purpose, from the human viewpoint, in the universe. We could be snuffed in an instant by asteroids or other phenomenon. What I feel for my children is incidental in the grand scheme of it all. If the Earth vanished today, the universe would know not remorse or caring, but continue on as before.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Thu 20 Mar, 2014 03:25 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

There are a lot of things that are supernatural that aren't gods. Supernatural simply means something that transcends nature... i.e. that can't be explained by nature or science or reason.

Seeing eternity in your child's eye isn't supernatural, it's a bad metaphor. Or a hallucination. Take your pick.
0 Replies
 
 

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