Atheism

Einstein said "Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one", and assorted mystics and philosophers have wondered the same thing.
So if we regard our 'reality' as an illusion or dream, and assume Jesus was a "Master of the Art of Dream Manipulation" it'd explain how he was able to bend 'reality' at will to produce what witnesses regarded as 'miracles'.
We might even speculate that bad unholy vibes disrupt the fragile dream and trigger birth defects in wombs, earthquakes and tsunamis etc.
It's not a new idea-
"Whatever the natural cause, sin is the true cause of all earthquakes." - John Wesley (1703 - 1791)
"The floodgates of the heavens are opened, the foundations of the earth shake. The earth is broken up, the earth is split asunder, the earth is thoroughly shaken. The earth reels like a drunkard, it sways like a hut in the wind, so heavy upon it is the guilt of its rebellion" (Isaiah ch 24)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Torn2_zpsd5fe22f1.jpg

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@neologist,

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Few atheists are willing to accept, even as allegory, that the sin of Genesis chapter 3 was an usurping of God's right to set standards for his creation.

I understand what you're saying

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@neologist,

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This underscores a failing of nominal christianity

A failing that the Pope is trying to reverse and it is something that I'm awed by.

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As long as Catholics pray to Jesus's mum i'll regard them as a laughing stock.
Do muslims pray to Mohammeds mum, or buddhists to Buddhas mum, or bahais to Bahai-u-ullahs mum?
Of course not, they've got more sense.. Smile

Sure, the Pope seems a nice guy but that cuts no ice with me-
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" (2 Cor 11:13/14)

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

panzade wrote:
Anybody care to discuss her point of view?
Perhps God could be faulted for not intervening before Satan could tempt Eve.

Oh yeah, that would make us puppets.

Few atheists are willing to accept, even as allegory, that the sin of Genesis chapter 3 was an usurping of God's right to set standards for his creation. Were that correctly understood, it would no longer be difficult to comprehend why time had to be allotted for mankind, under Satan's control, to prove their rebellion a folly. You and I might aver an over abundance of intervening time has elapsed. But we are not the timekeepers of this issue.

The story of Eden...and the fall..

...AT BEST...

...was a sting.

The god denied Adam and Eve the ability to know right from wrong...good from evil...

...and then punished them for doing wrong or evil.

THEY DID NOT KNOW THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEYING.

It must be horrible for someone who thinks this story makes any kind of sense...who thinks it is, in part, the work of their god...

...but horrible or not, the story is a mess.

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Quote:

Frank Apisa said: The god denied Adam and Eve the ability to know right from wrong...good from evil...

They didn't see anything "evil" in eating a fruit, so they ate it rather than let it rot on the tree.. Smile

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@Frank Apisa,

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...but horrible or not, the story is a mess.

If it is interpreted as being a mess it will be a mess to those who so interpret it. Why such people interpret it as a mess is due to personal factors such as stupidity, (circular thinking), arrogance (setting the world straight) and lack of education (minuscule vocabulary endlessly recycled). All of which are over-excited by un-Christian dick-work and gut misogyny dressed up in a tutu made of the finest gauze.

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@Frank Apisa,

There, of course, is the hub of our disagreement. What has always puzzled me is your inability to see it, even as allegory.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Frank wrote:

The god denied Adam and Eve the ability to know right from wrong...good from evil...

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

They didn't see anything "evil" in eating a fruit, so they ate it rather than let it rot on the tree..

If you believe that, you have the same level of understanding as Frank.

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Quote:

Romeo said: They didn't see anything "evil" in eating a fruit, so they ate it rather than let it rot on the tree..
Neologist said: If you believe that, you have the same level of understanding as Frank

It seems plain enough to me; God said "Don't eat that", but they thought "Why on earth should we let a good fruit go to waste? Let's have it regardless!", and found themselves in a world o' hurt.
The moral of the Eden story is therefore- Obey God and you'll be okay.. Smile

Or am I missing something?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

There, of course, is the hub of our disagreement. What has always puzzled me is your inability to see it, even as allegory.

I DO SEE IT AS ALLEGORY, NEO.

It always puzzles me that you do not see it as HUMAN ALLEGORY rather than an ALLEGORY set up by a god.

And it puzzles me even more that you cannot see the human error that went into the ALLEGORY...which is defective in its reasoning.

The claim made in the ALLEGORY is that the couple not only DID NOT KNOW the difference between right and wrong and good and evil...the god was determined that they NOT DISCOVER that difference.

And then when they did what the god considered wrong or evil...the god punished them DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH WHAT THEY DID...

...and the reason they did not know there was anything wrong with what they did...is because the god doing the punishing withheld that information from them.

If they knew it was wrong to disobey...THEY MAY VERY WELL NOT HAVE DISOBEYED. We will never know...because they did not know.

So you are puzzled by me not seeing the allegory (WHICH I DO SEE)...and I am puzzled by everything I just mentioned.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Quote:

They didn't see anything "evil" in eating a fruit, so they ate it rather than let it rot on the tree.

But fruit drops from a tree when it is ripe Romeo. Had the fruit fallen it would on the ground and not on the tree.

Under-ripe fruit being forbidden.

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Quote:

Spendius said: But fruit drops from a tree when it is ripe Romeo. Had the fruit fallen it would on the ground and not on the tree.
Under-ripe fruit being forbidden

The point is they were warned not to eat it regardless of whether it was on the tree, the ground or a supermarket shelf.. Wink

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

They didn't see anything "evil" in eating a fruit, so they ate it rather than let it rot on the tree..

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

The point is they were warned not to eat it regardless of whether it was on the tree, the ground or a supermarket shelf..

So what point are you trying to make? Did they eat the fruit because of "Oh well, Ho Hum." or because they wished to have God's authority to determine right from wrong?
No wonder Frank doesn't get it if a believer can't.

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Or did they eat it because they had absolutely no way of knowing there was anything wrong with eating it...and because the tree was placed right in the center of their world...and because a great tempter was there to tempt them into eating it...and because they had absolutely no way of knowing there was anything wrong with eating it?

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@Frank Apisa,

Apisa looks to have swallowed the tale as literally true. That the fruit was something akin to what can be seen in the shops.

The KJ vesrion was composed by a large committee of scholars and intellectuals all of whom were familiar with the delicacies of Elizabethan verse. A New Jersey tabloid reader is getting a bit above his station when he attempts a critical exegesis, such as it is, of a composition created by such men.

It is as if he dashed breathlessly into the conference room at the CERN project to explain how the job should be done without any rigmarole.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Quote:

The point is they were warned not to eat it regardless of whether it was on the tree, the ground or a supermarket shelf.

But what fruit is the key to the knowledge of good and evil? Adam and Eve had both put their underpants on before God was aware they had eaten the fruit. In fact it was the underpants that caused God to conclude they had eaten thereof.

Isn't an apple the only fruit which when sliced in half displays a configuration similar to that of a Rorschach ink blot.

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Quote:

Neologist asked: @RF- So what point are you trying to make? Did they eat the fruit because of "Oh well, Ho Hum." or because they wished to have God's authority to determine right from wrong?

The Eden story is perfectly straightforward, just ask any sunday school kid and they'll rightly tell you-
"Adam and Eve could have been happy in their beautiful garden, but they disobeyed God and lost everything.
It's a warning to the whole human race on earth to obey God or be unhappy".. Smile

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Unfortunately for all humans, unhappiness is all part and parcel of living.

People understand the difference between happiness and unhappiness, because we experience both. Being happy 100% of the time would make live boring and without much experience at living. Life means experiencing both!

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@cicerone imposter,

Yes but we could do without tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, meteors etc.. Smile

Our "reality" is a very fragile dream that's easily disrupted by bad vibes-

"All that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream"- Edgar Allen Poe
"Whatever the natural cause, sin is the true cause of all earthquakes." - John Wesley (1703 - 1791)

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