reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 18 May, 2013 05:22 pm
@igm,
Quote:
You are learning from many others but what is your primary purpose for doing so?


To learn the truth about reality the best of my ability.

Quote:
Death is certain and the time of death is uncertain so we need to make the most of the time we have...


Seems to be some truth here, what do you think we all could do to make the most of the time we have?

Quote:
I have a primary purpose which makes me selective about who I learn from and what I attempt to understand... do you?


I can not say that I have a purpose other than learning truth and trying to live a happy life.

What is your purpose and how do you determine who you learn from and what you attempt to understand?
igm
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 06:13 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

igm wrote:
You are learning from many others but what is your primary purpose for doing so?

To learn the truth about reality the best of my ability.

I can not say that I have a purpose other than learning truth and trying to live a happy life.

Do you expect that learning the truth about reality will translate directly into a happier life?

You have been doing this for some time now, what are the top three things you have learned?


reasoning logic wrote:

… what do you think we all could do to make the most of the time we have?

What is your purpose and how do you determine who you learn from and what you attempt to understand?

Pretty much the same as you but always based on the teachings of the Buddha or commentaries on those teachings: To give up mistaken ideas about the true nature of reality in order to minimise or remove suffering and uncover unconditioned happiness and experience it and to be able to show others who ask how to do the same but not by changing fundamentally what I was taught via my teachers who hold the lineages of the Buddha’s teachings and the commentaries on them.

I believe if you want to understand a subject you locate and expert on it and.. go as deep as you can with it… and always with a critical mind. To mix it with other views and from others who are not trying to understand the true nature of reality or who are not qualified to teach on the subject is like digging many small holes in the ground… I prefer to dig one deep hole as deeply and efficiently as possible… forgive the analogy but it works for me.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 08:06 am
@igm,
Quote:
Do you expect that learning the truth about reality will translate directly into a happier life?


It can lessen the suffering at times compared to not knowing the the truth.
example, I would think that it would be better to understand how bacteria works rather than to blame infections on devils or other nonsense.

Quote:
You have been doing this for some time now, what are the top three things you have learned?


I do not know if I have three top things but rather there are many things that I have learned.

Quote:
Pretty much the same as you but always based on the teachings of the Buddha or commentaries on those teachings: To give up mistaken ideas about the true nature of reality in order to minimise or remove suffering and uncover unconditioned happiness and experience it and to be able to show others who ask how to do the same but not by changing fundamentally what I was taught via my teachers who hold the lineages of the Buddha’s teachings and the commentaries on them.


It seems to be solid ground you are walking on but I can not personally comment on the part about "always based on the teachings of the Buddha or commentaries on those teachings" because I do not have enough knowledge of how you see it.

Quote:
I believe if you want to understand a subject you locate and expert on it and.. go as deep as you can with it… and always with a critical mind.


Seems to be good advice to me.

Quote:
To mix it with other views and from others who are not trying to understand the true nature of reality or who are not qualified to teach on the subject is like digging many small holes in the ground…


This is one way of looking at it and another way is that these "others who are not trying to understand the true nature of reality or who are not qualified to teach on the subject" They too are a part of our reality and getting to know how they have come to spread false claims and reasons why they continue can help to reveal more of reality.
igm
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 11:27 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

This is one way of looking at it and another way is that these "others who are not trying to understand the true nature of reality or who are not qualified to teach on the subject" They too are a part of our reality and getting to know how they have come to spread false claims and reasons why they continue can help to reveal more of reality.


Yes, but may I just add that one should be as expert as possible in one's own discipline in order to spot the false claims etc.. otherwise one may just become confused or confuse others. But sure alongside developing depth one should always listen to others' accounts of such things even if it is only to test it against one's own understanding. Intelligent criticism from others should always be welcomed. Again though if one spends too much time refuting false claims then it may be regretted when death suddenly appears and we then wish we'd focused on other things... or maybe not... who knows for sure?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 11:36 am
@igm,
Quote:
...who knows for sure?


Not I, that is for certain.

How about you two?
igm
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 11:38 am
@Frank Apisa,
Exactly why I ended with those words Wink
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 11:44 am
@igm,
Quote:
Again though if one spends too much time refuting false claims then it may be regretted when death suddenly appears and we then wish we'd focused on other things... or maybe not... who knows for sure?


It is all fun for me and it brings much pleasure to me to hear other people's ideas of reality and I share with them some of what I have learned myself.

I am a generalist myself and specialize in no one subject other than reality that is experienced by myself and the experiences others share with me, I do study some of the works of many specialists but for me, "just to have a layman's understanding of many fields of study brings great pleasure to me.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 11:51 am
@igm,
igm wrote:

Exactly why I ended with those words Wink


I kinda figured you did...which is why, despite the fact that I have tried to keep out of this back and forth between you and RL, I had to comment here. Wink
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 11:52 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

I am a generalist myself and specialize in no one subject other than reality that is experienced by myself and the experiences others share with me, I do study some of the works of many specialists but for me, "just to have a layman's understanding of many fields of study brings great pleasure to me.

If pleasure is your raison d'être for trying to understand reality, then those that get pleasure from blind faith religion must be equally successful.. no? Can they then be criticized?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 12:02 pm
@igm,
Quote:
If pleasure is your raison d'être for trying to understand reality, then those that get pleasure from blind faith religion must be equally successful.. no? Can they then be criticized.


I would like to reword and see if it holds the same value.

If pleasure is your raison d'être for trying to understand evidenced based reality, then those that get pleasure from lies, non evidence, blind faith religion must be equally successful.. no? Can they then be criticized.

I will not criticize the people but I do think the way in which they learn what they think is truth should come under scrutiny.

Pleasure is what we all seek regardless if we think it is true or not.
igm
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 12:20 pm
@reasoning logic,
Don't you damage their pleasure by doing so? You could just privately refute their beliefs and still gain pleasure. What if you destroy their beliefs and they can no longer find pleasure in life because you have publicly refuted their beliefs but failed to give them anything to replace that faith, as they just don't have that kind of personality or intellect?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 12:33 pm
@igm,
Quote:
Don't you damage their pleasure by doing so? You could just privately refute their beliefs and still gain pleasure. What if you destroy their beliefs and they can no longer find pleasure in life because you have publicly refuted their beliefs but failed to give them anything to replace that faith, as they just don't have that kind of personality or intellect?


It is nothing more than trying to give them what they want "the truth" well I can only hope that the majority of them care about the truth but surly there are some that know what they are ingaged in is not truth.

I would like to reword your quote again to see if the logic is still there.


Don't you damage their pleasure by doing so? You could just privately refute a serial killers beliefs and still gain pleasure. What if you destroy serial killers beliefs and they can no longer find pleasure in life because you have publicly refuted their beliefs but failed to give them anything to replace those killing sprees, as they just don't have that kind of personality or intellect?

I am not sure what I would do.
igm
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 12:44 pm
@reasoning logic,
Doesn't work for me I was thinking about a blind faith religion not serial killers and the subject under discussion was 'reality' and how various people perceive it. Perhaps food for thought... damaging some innocent person's pleasure without replacing it with something else could harm those people... just a thought.. it doesn't have to be 'someone' you reason with... the pleasure should come from understanding how their wrong but not necessarily confronting them with it. Can we truly get pleasure by harming others, even in the way I'm describing? Remember not all people have the capacity or need or inclination to reason but they 'all' want to be happy if possible.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 01:03 pm
@igm,
Quote:
damaging some innocent person's pleasure without replacing it with something else could harm those people...


I am not sure if I would call someone innocent who is denying the rights of others, based on the false information that they have been taught.
What makes you think that replacing their lies with truth would not give them something new to worship?

Quote:
Remember not all people have the capacity or need or inclination to reason but they 'all' want to be happy if possible.


Do you think that the truth could be a barrier that would be in the way of achieving this happiness?
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 01:29 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
I am not sure if I would call someone innocent who is denying the rights of others, based on the false information that they have been taught.


What have you in mind rl?

Quote:
What makes you think that replacing their lies with truth would not give them something new to worship?


What is there to worship in truth. It is by definition mundane. That certain carefully chosen aspects of truth surprise you, or enable you to pretend to personal excellence by bringing them to the attention of others, does not raise them above such a level.

We employ a great deal of time and scarce resources in avoiding truths. We have difficulty seeing ourselves, for example, as a mobile tube with a hole at each end chomping our way through a nutrient bed. Not that I do of course. I find it highly amusing.

When I saw Maria Muldaur singing the line "meat shakin' on your bones" I swear she actually shuddered. Dylan snipped the 5 seconds of it into one of his movies.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 02:10 pm
@reasoning logic,
If someone point blank asks you to attempt to undermine their faith then I guess that might work out (i.e. it should be ok to do that... probably) for some and the uninvited forcing of your understanding on others may work in some cases.. but there will always be the risk of damaging the happiness of others for the whole of their lives... dangerous stuff. I can't say I haven't done the same thing but I'm trying not to repeat it... it's hard... but I'll keep trying.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 02:54 pm
@igm,
Quote:
for some and the uninvited forcing of your understanding on others may work in some cases.. but there will always be the risk of damaging the happiness of others for the whole of their lives... dangerous stuff. I can't say I haven't done the same thing but I'm trying not to repeat it... it's hard... but I'll keep trying.


I think that we may all engage in this behavior and we are often wrong about what we think is truth, This includes theists and atheists alike but the truth is, "I do not know of any atheists who go door to door doing what you are concerned about.

I have to take that back because I have seen some atheists joking around about it.

spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 03:15 pm
@igm,
You explained that real sweet igm.

Dylan once warned--"you can fry somebody's brain."

I must have made the point many times but never as good as you just did.

Jane Austen makes regret at doing that sort of thing the central aspect of Emma. Emma makes the same resolution you do and has to try very hard to keep it.

Maybe if you read that brilliant book it would help you keep yours. The scene when Harriet brings her cherished momentos of Mr Elton, a broken pencil stub and a piece of a court plaster he had torn off and discarded, to be ritually thrown in the back of the fire before Emma's own astonished eyes, is something I have never seen ever got close to.

That will stiffen your will.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 03:24 pm
@reasoning logic,
Yes, I guess there is a cyber equivalent of door-to-door also.

There are definitely times when religions need to be challenged... most often because they appear to be damaging others... but just having blind-faith isn't enough in my opinion... there has to be the additional threat of harming others with their message.... and of course forcing their message onto others.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 19 May, 2013 03:30 pm
@igm,
I have a sign by our doorbell; NO SOLICITING.

 

Related Topics

The tolerant atheist - Discussion by Tuna
Another day when there is no God - Discussion by edgarblythe
church of atheism - Discussion by daredevil
Can An Atheist Have A Soul? - Discussion by spiritual anrkst
THE MAGIC BUS COMES TO CANADA - Discussion by Setanta
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Atheism
  3. » Page 340
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.08 seconds on 05/15/2025 at 02:29:40