Atheism

That seems awfully elaborate. Long before i knew what either empiricism or utilitarianism are, i had reached the point at which, in hypothetical response to a hypothetical statement that this is a god, my response were "I don't believe that." It took a few more years to sort out the nonsense about agnosticism versus atheism, but that central statement didn't require nearly that much work.

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@Thomas,

I can't understand that.

I don't see how Tenet#1 doesn't result in catatonia unless it is only meant to be a form of words with no real meaning.

And I don't see how Tenet#2 can get any information except from its own senses.

No wonder Russell was such a gump. He was what some women call a "shagger".

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As I said before, I tried to believe in the Christian God, but it just didn't take. I couldn't outwit my own good judgement.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

That seems awfully elaborate. Long before i knew what either empiricism or utilitarianism are, i had reached the point at which, in hypothetical response to a hypothetical statement that this is a god, my response were "I don't believe that." It took a few more years to sort out the nonsense about agnosticism versus atheism, but that central statement didn't require nearly that much work.

I don't think we disagree, really. Two points, though. First, is it a central statement for you? Apart from discussions like this one, how much time of your life do you spend contemplating your disbelief in gods? I suspect it isn't much more than you spend contemplating your disbelief in the doggie-treat fairy that Mr. Bailey and Ms. Cleo worship. Certainly it's much less than honest believers spend contemplating their belief in god. That's my guess, anyway.

Second, whether a two-tenet religion is "awfully elaborate" or not, I was trying to address the whole issue of atheism as a faith. Your answer to this is perfectly fine. I tried similar answers myself many times in these discussions. But somehow it never seems to get through to believers, so I tried a different answer: You (believer) think atheism is a faith? I'm an atheist, and I'll tell you what my faith is. See? Disbelieving in god isn't really central to it. It just emerges as a side effect, and an utterly marginal one at that.

I was hoping this approach might be more comprehensible to believers. One can always try.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

It took a few more years to sort out the nonsense about agnosticism versus atheism, but that central statement didn't require nearly that much work.

As work is something to be avoided whenever possible the obvious solution is to believe, or act as if you believe, which amounts to the same thing from a materialistic point of view, whatever it is the Big Boss says. The Big Boss does the work. With help from a large team, selected on merit alone, which has access to archives relating to human behaviour dating back to the beginning. The beginning of the non-human part being of no interest except to a few specialists who can roll pork barrels around better than most of us.

This procedure frees thinking up for more useful tasks such as avoiding un-necessary work and getting a cheap go at the goodies which is the principle on which the oil industry is based. Other types of thinking being unscientific. Obviously. What could possibly be more in full tune with evolutionary determinants than avoiding un-necessary work and mud-honeying in the goodies on the cheap? Like when carnivores eat meat contrasted with how it should be done. Or the decor in the respective lairs. One might go so far as saying, applying critical thinking, which I know atheists always say should be done, that thinking about anything other than the avoidance of un-necessary work and slurping up free syrup is counter evolution. Flat out. It is counter capitalist entrepreneurial doctrine too. It's counter bloody common-sense as well.

This post is justified because I'm attempting to increase the number of people who stop using the unique scarce resource inside their noddles for thinking about things which don't tend towards the avoidance of un-necessary work and snouting the trough more efficiently and thus enlarge the pool of inventiveness. The other things are left to the Big Boss, and if I succeed I am contributing to the obvious evolutionary direction of maximising our materialistic sensualities given all the circumstances. All the circumstances are the realm of the Big Boss and partial circumstances are the realm of those who think they are cleverer than they are. Mom having dinned it into them from the start. And the educational system not having the heart to contradict Her being materialistic itself.

Any objections?

The problem with not accepting what the Big Boss says is that it gets selective. One very easily ends up believing what the Big Boss says some of the time and possibly most of the time. In view of the amount of time we have our underpants round our ankles set against the amount of time we are presenting ourselves socially it is probably most of the time.

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@Thomas,

Quote:

. It just emerges as a side effect, and an utterly marginal one at that.

It's not that marginal when Thomas is spending all this time composing his posts when he might be helping little old ladies across the road.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Any objections?

other than you posting on this thread at all ?

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Spendi brings flies for the **** but has to also bring the **** before they will come.

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@ehBeth,

That doesn't count Beth. It's direction, if the objection is sustained, is to narrow down the thread to just those you approve of. Which would be ridiculous for a number of reasons some of which are obvious.

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@Thomas,

Although I've been battling the idea that atheism is a "faith," I'll have to agree that in apposition to "faith in god," faith in atheism makes sense - so that those of god-faith can understand. That's what they want us to "believe" anywhos.

Those of god-faith will never be able to prove their "faith." The bible is full of errors, omissions, and contradictions, and it's been proven through research that prayer doesn't work. Their "faith" is hanging on a thread.

My atheism-faith is sitting on solid ground.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Although I've been battling the idea that atheism is a "faith," I'll have to agree that in apposition to "faith in god," faith in atheism makes sense - so that those of god-faith can understand. That's what they want us to "believe" anywhos.

Those of god-faith will never be able to prove their "faith." The bible is full of errors, omissions, and contradictions, and it's been proven through research that prayer doesn't work. Their "faith" is hanging on a thread.

My atheism-faith is sitting on solid ground.

Some people think faith is synonymous with "belief without knowledge". In other words, it's an act of faith to believe that the universe wasn't created 5 minutes ago. It's also an act of faith to sit down in a chair and expect not to fall through it.

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@cicerone imposter,

CI if you were a amputee that prayed and had the faith that Spendius has, "God may give you reproductive organs and limbs!

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@Night Ripper,

NR, It seems you have not had the opportunity to participate in this discussion from the beginning; we have gone through all the twists and turns about faith and atheism. We understand the definition of faith, but many christians claim atheism is also faith-based. If it makes god-faith people happy for us to accept atheism-faith, we have not lost anything. This is a topic about religion and atheism; from that perspective, it makes sense.

From a dictionary:

Quote:

faith
/feɪθ/ Show Spelled[feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

It meets several criteria when used as an adjective for atheism.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

NR, It seems you have not had the opportunity to participate in this discussion from the beginning; we have gone through all the twists and turns about faith and atheism. We understand the definition of faith, but many christians claim atheism is also faith-based. If it makes god-faith people happy for us to accept atheism-faith, we have not lost anything. This is a topic about religion and atheism; from that perspective, it makes sense.

From a dictionary:

Quote:
faith
/feɪθ/ Show Spelled[feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

It meets several criteria when used as an adjective for atheism.

I think (2) is the definition invoked by god-faith.

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@cicerone imposter,

But you have no proof ci. that there is no God. Thus your assertion that there is no God is a faith.

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@Thomas,

I wasn't saying that we disagree, i was just commenting on the approach--i didn't come to the conclusion for philosophical reasons. It is a central statement, as regards the hypothetical to which i referred. Unless and until someone makes a point of asserting their belief in a deity, it is supremely insignificant. So i only used the word central with regard the hypothetical exchange to which i referred.

I guess i'm not convinced that "faith" has anything to do with it. I don't take it on faith that there is no god. I also don't take it on faith that there is. I'm not understanding why faith has to be involved. Just so as to communicate with theists in their own terms?

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@Setanta,

As somebody has pointed out, faith relies on acceptance of the unknow, unseen. I don't got any.

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@edgarblythe,

I had some... but I got rid of it. The results have been bitter-sweet.

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@spendius,

Quote:

But you have no proof ci. that there is no God. Thus your assertion that there is no God is a faith.

Always backwards.
'tis the faithful who make the assertion that there is some power '....the giftie gie us...'
We are the ones for whom such things don't matter.
We were not born imperfect and commanded to become so, so our lives are not burdened by trying to square circles and readjust our philosophy every hundred months or so as some new reality is revealed by the people who look for them, test them and say "This is true."
We don't even have to believe them. We can do our own tests to tell whether a given fact is indeed true and true over and over.
It's hopeless when we come to you and your folks, you don't even have truths.
You have claims, untested, because they are not testable.
Religion and the belief in God or gods or astrology or the ability of some men to cast coconuts in patterns which predict the future are all complete wastes of time and energy.

Joe(go write something real for once in your life)Nation

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@spendius,

spendi, You can't pull that reverse psychology on this old geezer; it's almost impossible to prove a negative. I ain't biting.

Rather, it's up to you to prove god exists.

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