Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 03:27 am
@Oylok,
Oylok wrote:
Once you understand that life is without any meaning, you are free to evaluate what in life is most important to you. You are free to make the world a better place in the way that you personally think is best.


Agreed.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 03:55 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
I will take that as a compliment. Thank you (makes low sweeping Walter Raleigh type bow).
It wasn't directed toward you - have you been hostile or inane - have I missed something?

I wouldn't strive to be too much like Sir Walter Raleigh - he was beheaded you know...I just learned about that a couple of weeks ago - he was a favorite of Elizabeth 1 who had Sherborne House built for him and then he took up with one of her Ladies in Waiting so she (Elizabeth I) banished him and imprisoned him - some guy who was walking his dog told me the whole story when I was taking a picture of the lake that used to be an orangery that Sir Walter Raleigh used to walk in - this guy made it sound like Queen Elizabeth 1 was the scorned woman who had him beheaded though - she wasn't - she forgave him - he was beheaded 15 years after she died- I looked it up in wikipedia when I got home.

I wonder if HE (Sir Walter Raliegh) was an atheist? I'll have to look that up.

0 Replies
 
Owen phil
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 03:59 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Seeing that to be an Atheist takes more ridiculous belief than to be a Theist, perhaps bad company is a good thing ? If Atheists had brains like they claim, they would admit the impossibility of proving a negative and call themselves Agnostic. I am Agnostic so you would be in great company Very Happy .


What the hell are you talking about!

An atheist "believes" that God does not exist.
Why do you believe this remark is 'more ridiculous'
than the theistic belief that God does exist??

As to proving a negative...

((p v q) & ~p) -> ~q. That is to say we can prove the negative (~q) if we assume the premises ((p v q) & ~p).

We can easily prove, x does not exist, if x is defined/described by a contradictory predication, as is the case for (Christians, Muslims and Jews).

(the x: Fx & ~Fx) does not exist, is provable.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 04:03 am
@Owen phil,
You are wrong. An atheist simply does not believe that there is a god, which is not at all the same as having a belief set, such as that with which religionists delude themselves. I understand, of course, that religionists need to characterize atheism as a belief set, to cut it down to size, and make the erroneous claim that there is just a conflict of beliefs.

The gobshites are trying to take over the thread--yet again.
Owen phil
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 04:15 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

You are wrong. An atheist simply does not believe that there is a god, which is not at all the same as having a belief set, such as that with which religionists delude themselves. I understand, of course, that religionists need to characterize atheism as a belief set, to cut it down to size, and make the erroneous claim that there is just a conflict of beliefs.

The gobshites are trying to take over the thread--yet again.


???
Theists...those people who believe 'God exists, is true'.
Non-theists...those people who do not believe 'God exists, is true'.
Atheists...those people who believe 'God exists, is false'.
Non-atheists...those people who do not believe that 'God exists, is false'.

Atheists are included in non-theists, but, non-theists are not included in Atheists.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 04:28 am
None of that alters that atheist are not people who are expressing a belief, they are people who are rejecting a belief. If someone says to me that there a god, i say: "I don't believe that." I have not expressed a belief, i have rejected one which were expressed to me. Play all the word games you want, atheists are not equivalent believers to theists.
Owen phil
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 04:49 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

None of that alters that atheist are not people who are expressing a belief, they are people who are rejecting a belief. If someone says to me that there a god, i say: "I don't believe that." I have not expressed a belief, i have rejected one which were expressed to me. Play all the word games you want, atheists are not equivalent believers to theists.


Nonsense!
Your identification of Atheist and Non-theist is simply wrong.
An atheist deliberately believes 'God does not exist'.

According to you, babies are atheists...say what??
According to you, those who cannot believe anything are atheists...say what??



spendius
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 04:56 am
@Oylok,
Quote:
Once you understand that life is without any meaning, you are free to evaluate what in life is most important to you.


And so is everyone else and thus anarchy is only prevented by the mightiest being right and the laws they bring in being obeyed because of fear of their sanctions which, if experience is anything to go by in the modern world, are draconian and careless of human rights.

The Christian culture is by no means perfect but it is better than any others we have knowledge of. It even allows atheists to preach their doctrines which suggests that it has no fear of them.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 04:57 am
@Owen phil,
You're the one peddling nonsense. I haven't addressed the issue of "non-theists," nor am i obliged to review the issue in your terms. Atheist means without god, it is only your idiosyncratic and self-serving definition which requires an atheist to "deliberately" deny that god exists.

Yes, certainly someone who didn't have the necessay mental faculties to hold any belief would be without god. Too bad if that bothers you. Too bad if you lack the perception to understand something so simple as that atheist means "without god."
Owen phil
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 05:22 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

You're the one peddling nonsense. I haven't addressed the issue of "non-theists," nor am i obliged to review the issue in your terms. Atheist means without god, it is only your idiosyncratic and self-serving definition which requires an atheist to "deliberately" deny that god exists.

Yes, certainly someone who didn't have the necessay mental faculties to hold any belief would be without god. Too bad if that bothers you. Too bad if you lack the perception to understand something so simple as that atheist means "without god."


Wrong again.
You want to say:The baby Jesus (G0d) is an atheist??
The present king of France is an atheist??

Why don't you see (your) bad logic here?
It does not make sense to claim that (atheist means "without god.").
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 05:33 am
@Owen phil,
No, you're the one who is wrong, and you seem not to have a very firm grasp on logic, quite apart from the absurdities you're posting here. You say "the baby Jesus (God) is . . ." That's present tense, Bubba. Do you allege that "the baby Jesus" exists in the here and now? You allege that this baby Jesus character of yours is "god." What evidence do you have, a., that this is true, b., that any "god" exists? That's the core question, because if you assert that, i'm going to simply say: "I don't believe that."

France is a republic, not a monarchy. There is no "present king of France." No, i don't see anything at all logically wrong with what i've posted. I see a lot of foolishness being paraded around by you under a false guise of "logic." It makes perfect sense to claim atheist means "without god," because that is in fact what the root components mean. The Greek combining form "a-" means without, and theos, the latinate form of the Greek word for god--"without god."

If you can't come up with anything better than bald, unsupportable assertions, i see little point in continuing to discuss this with you. You're spamming the thread.
Ionus
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 05:53 am
@Owen phil,
Quote:
What the hell are you talking about!
Dont get too excited, friend.... Neutral

Take an infinite universe. Now prove to me it is impossible for somewhere out there to be a swamp where intelligent mattresses grow. When you do that, we will give you a hard one. Prove God does not exist given extra dimensions to this universe.

Oh and your maths are extremely faulty. Nice try though.
Owen phil
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:23 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

No, you're the one who is wrong, and you seem not to have a very firm grasp on logic, quite apart from the absurdities you're posting here. You say "the baby Jesus (God) is . . ." That's present tense, Bubba. Do you allege that "the baby Jesus" exists in the here and now? You allege that this baby Jesus character of yours is "god." What evidence do you have, a., that this is true, b., that any "god" exists? That's the core question, because if you assert that, i'm going to simply say: "I don't believe that."

France is a republic, not a monarchy. There is no "present king of France." No, i don't see anything at all logically wrong with what i've posted. I see a lot of foolishness being paraded around by you under a false guise of "logic." It makes perfect sense to claim atheist means "without god," because that is in fact what the root components mean. The Greek combining form "a-" means without, and theos, the latinate form of the Greek word for god--"without god."

If you can't come up with anything better than bald, unsupportable assertions, i see little point in continuing to discuss this with you. You're spamming the thread.


You claim that 'babies are atheists', because they do not believe that God exists. Therefore, the baby Jesus (God) does not/did not believe that "He" exists... and that the baby Jesus 'was' an atheist..Wow, talk about absurdities!

Evidently you cannot tolerate opposing opinions.
Lots of Luck with that lack of logic!
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:35 am
@Owen phil,
I made no assertions about what babies do or do not believe. I'm simply pointing out that they are without god, and therefore that makes them astheist--without god. There is no reason to address your absurdities about "the baby Jesus," since you have not demonstrated either that he exists or that he existed. As for a lack of logic, since you're the one who displays no logic, not i, you are the one who will be in need of "luck." (Can you tell me what this "luck" is, and demonstrate that it exists?)

I'll bet you're one of those philosophy forum refugees who thinks that the ability to cobble together an argument--no matter how absurd--makes your claims as plausible as anyone else's. Added to that, we have you capitalizing "he" and "god"--which suggests to me that you're a theist. Which is why i say you are spamming the thread.
0 Replies
 
Owen phil
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:37 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
What the hell are you talking about!
Dont get too excited, friend.... Neutral

Take an infinite universe. Now prove to me it is impossible for somewhere out there to be a swamp where intelligent mattresses grow. When you do that, we will give you a hard one. Prove God does not exist given extra dimensions to this universe.

Oh and your maths are extremely faulty. Nice try though.


Where is the logic (not maths) extremely faulty here??
Evidently you are not aware of the rule 'disjunctive syllogism'.

As to proving a negative...
((p v q) & ~p) -> ~q. That is to say we can prove the negative (~q) if we assume the premises ((p v q) & ~p).
We can easily prove, x does not exist, if x is defined/described by a contradictory predication, as is the case for (Christians, Muslims and Jews).
(the x: Fx & ~Fx) does not exist, is provable.

I don't expect you can answer, because your logic is as bad as is Setana's logic.
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:40 am
owenphil and lonus - a perfect couple.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:41 am
We're not dealing solely with logic here, Bubba. I'm asking you for some proof--and you're not providing it. What proof do you offer that any "god" exists? You're assuming that in your ludicrous arguments. You're begging the question by making the existence of a "god" an a priori assumption. You're doing very badly here.
Owen phil
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:47 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

We're not dealing solely with logic here, Bubba. I'm asking you for some proof--and you're not providing it. What proof do you offer that any "god" exists? You're assuming that in your ludicrous arguments. You're begging the question by making the existence of a "god" an a priori assumption. You're doing very badly here.


Hey BUBBA, I do not claim that any god exists.

That you have assume that I am a theist, only shows how badly you have misunderstood our conversation..ie. not at all!

Your logic could get worse...the next post you make will show that.
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:51 am
@Setanta,
What proof does Setanta have that Sunday exists. Or 2010 AD. Or the Constitution.

They exist because we have an agreed consensus that they do. Likewise we can have an agreed consensus that God exists, does not exist or might exist.

Just as Sunday, 2010 AD and the Constitution exist because we agree they do for our convenience then shouldn't we be discussing the conveniences or inconveniences of agreeing that God exists, doesn't exist or might exist. And that all other arguments are futile.

We have a consensus that the Queen doesn't go to the toilet.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:53 am
@Owen phil,
If you don't believe there is a "god," why do you capitalize the words "god" and "he?" What was the source of all that "baby Jesus" bullshit? If you don't want people to assume that you're a theist, you're doing a piss poor job of convincing anyone otherwise.
 

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