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Kansas v. Roeder

 
 
Reply Fri 29 Jan, 2010 07:48 pm
You may recall that Roeder was on trial for the murder of abortion provider Dr. George Tiller. Roeder showed up at Tiller's church and shot him in the head to "save all the babies that Tiller was going to kill".

I watched Roeder's testimony and the closing arguements today. Fascinating.

His defense seemed to involve the "necessity" of killing Tiller. That it wasn't self defense but that it was defense.

I'm wondering if he really thought this might work or if he decided to just be a martyr for the cause.

I don't see how the jury could have come back with anything but a guilty verdict.

Did you follow this trial at all?

What do you think will happen next?



 
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jan, 2010 07:50 pm
@boomerang,
he has a screw loose, and he wants to die for the cause.


(ok, more than one...)
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  3  
Reply Fri 29 Jan, 2010 09:06 pm
Well he'll die a long, slow, death by old age in prison.

It was just the strangest thing to listen to him. He had to know that what he was saying would send him to prison for the rest of his life but he was still so convinced that he was right.

But even then there was so little passion behind what he was saying.

It was really chilling.

The whole "only God gets to decide who dies" except when God doesn't do anything about it and then I have to do something about it blahblahblah.

Did he think that he was an instrument of God?

The whole thing has left me bewildered.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Fri 29 Jan, 2010 09:47 pm
He apparently considers making a statement more important than saving himself. Odd that one so bent on protecting life decided that murder was the best statement to that end.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jan, 2010 12:28 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
He apparently considers making a statement more important than saving himself.
Odd that one so bent on protecting life decided that murder was the best statement to that end.
When I was 13, I had not attended law school.
I was shocked and horrified -- incredulous on learning that abortion was illegal; a crime.
I deemed abortion to be an aspect of self defense from an intrusive parasite.
It was the same as killing invasive bacteria.
The fact that the invasive organism woud eventually become human did not change
the morality of the situation, because defense from humans is very common.

Accordingly, I subsequently welcomed Roe v. Wade, years later.
I find the anti-abortion position to be immoral
because it champions the bad guy -- the instrusive parasite -- at the expense
of his hostess. That is morally outrageous. She has a right to defend herself.

Having said that, in a way,
I understand and dissent from defendant 's reasoning.
He erroneously believes that he is defending INNOCENT life,
as if the parasite had any right to be in there and
as if the pregnant chick had no right to defend herself.

To make his position more understandable,
let 's look at it this way:
Suppose that defendant saw someone throwing grenades into a lot of kids
(shall we say 5 years old, for the sake of argument?)
who were doing no harm and who were not parasites
with each of them having a right to live.
If defendant drew his gun and took out the grenadier
he 'd not be defending himself, but he woud be defending
other innocent citizens from a killer. Hence, he 'd act as a hero
and sees himself as such.

Different mental premises of argument yield different results.


Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jan, 2010 12:55 am
I think the scariest thing about him is his seeming sanity.

he's not the nuttiest fruitcake in the box around here.

he just quietly planned to do what he intended to do, did it, and went home to wait for the system to take him. he had been in jail enough to know what he was in for, and decided to proceed.

and for the most part he is not talked about locally. as though he were a necessary evil.

spooky...
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jan, 2010 01:10 am
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:
I think the scariest thing about him is his seeming sanity.

he's not the nuttiest fruitcake in the box around here.

he just quietly planned to do what he intended to do, did it,
and went home to wait for the system to take him.
he had been in jail enough to know what he was in for, and decided to proceed.

and for the most part he is not talked about locally. as though he were a necessary evil.

spooky...
Rocky, we are of one mind as to the impropriety
of murdering abortionists. I celebrate his conviction
and his forthcoming penalty, whatever it will prove to be,
but I must QUESTION your definition of insanity.
Altho I disagree with his principles,
and I believe his logic to be in error,
I 've gotta say of him that he is a man
who is willing to sacrifice everything that he has, for his principles.

I don 't know about U, Rocky,
but I 'm not ready to say that everyone who disagrees with me is crazy.
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Jan, 2010 01:17 am
@OmSigDAVID,
everyone is crazy to some degree dave...
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jan, 2010 05:41 am

A friend of mine is a well known psychiatrist,
who told me: "David, anyone who u don 't think is crazy
is just someone who u don 't know well enuf."





David
0 Replies
 
yrjohnnyc
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 11:03 pm
This is a legal forum, right? He is not legally crazy. McNoughton principle.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 11:09 pm
If you mean the entire site, no, it is not a legal forum. Of course, a certain portion of it is given over to discussion of legal matters. I think, though, that if you read the thread, you will find that the discussion concerns itself not with legalities, but with the personality of the accused.
0 Replies
 
ProLife4Ever1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 06:54 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
As a woman I have to say that I cannot ever agree with such a statement. I do not agree with what Roeder did. Taking human life is never the right option and it was completely misguided. However, that anyone could call a baby a parasite is absurd and wrong. They are not the ones that chose to be there, yet they are treated like garbage when their parents didn't take the necessary precautions. Good God, you realize that you just called yourself a parasite, right? Everyone starts out the same. You basically said that your parents should have aborted you. According to your own philosophy you called yourself an invasive monster. Do you realize that a baby's heart is beating at 10 days old? How can a child be considered something less than human the day before it is born simply because it is not visible; yet when it is born all of the sudden it is now human. Does that mean that if it had been born a day earlier it wouldn't have been human. If you actually think about what you are saying you will understand how flawed this way of thinking truly is. My mother and my best friend's mother both work for anti-abortion crisis pregnancy centers. Have YOU seen a baby that has been aborted? I have. Have YOU seen a baby's head and limbs severed from its torso because the doctor ripped them from his body with a pair of tongs? I have. Have YOU seen the back of a child's skull pierced with surgical scissors and then the brains sucked out? I have. Those who speak without actually seeing and knowing have no business speaking at all.
What Roeder did was wrong. I do not condone what he did and he should be punished.
What you said was also wrong. It is even more horrific than what Roeder did. You do not support someone who took one person's life, correct? Yes, and no one should ever support a man like that. Yet you support organizations that have taken millions of lives. Something is not right with this picture. I will let you figure out what that is.
You label yourselves pro-choice. Where in that does the baby have a choice? A bit hypocritical don't you think?
When did one person's preference take priority over life? I ask is that before you point fingers and call us right wing fanatics, you take a look at your own beliefs and decisions first.
I also ask you to look at yourself. You are still breathing. You were not aborted and I bet you love life. Why should you get a chance at life and others should not? How are you or I more important than anyone else? The answer is that we are not. A baby has just as much right to live and exist on this planet as everyone else. That "pregnant chick" you speak of (and in a very derogatory manner I might add) is a woman, not a chick. A woman who possible made a mistake to get where she it today. But her mistake should not cost an innocent child their life. Did that baby force its mother into having sex unprotected? No, and unless it was rape, no one did. That was her choice. Not the child's. And even in the case of rape it is still not the baby's fault, why can't people see this? If the mother doesn't want the child that is what adoption is for. Do you have any idea how many loving families want to adopt because they can't have children? People spend thousands of dollars at fertility clinics and in the adoption process because they can't have children. Yet those that can have children throw them away, like worthless garbage.
I truly hope that you think long and hard about what I have said. And be prepared for a fight. Because people like me are not going away. We will be there every step of the way fighting for the rights of innocent victims. And we will do it the right way, not taking people's lives. Those people who bomb abortion clinics and kill the doctors are stupid. That is not the way to win people to their side. It is through facts. Facts that I WILL ALWAYS PRESENT! And should I ever run into a woman who wants an abortion I will do everything within my power to convince her otherwise. It will be for the child who did not ask for the hatred that people like you send their way.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 07:03 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
You may recall that Roeder was on trial for the murder of abortion provider Dr. George Tiller. Roeder showed up at Tiller's church and shot him in the head to "save all the babies that Tiller was going to kill".

I watched Roeder's testimony and the closing arguements today. Fascinating.

His defense seemed to involve the "necessity" of killing Tiller. That it wasn't self defense but that it was defense.

I'm wondering if he really thought this might work or if he decided to just be a martyr for the cause.

I don't see how the jury could have come back with anything but a guilty verdict.

Did you follow this trial at all?

What do you think will happen next?




I did not follow his trial,
nor was I aware of it, but I guess that his only hope
was for his legal counsel to select a jury full of people
who agree with defendant 's filosofy.

I support women 's rights to defend themselves from ANY parasite,
with no explanations necessary.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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