Sex: attitudes and philosophy

@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

That is an invalid assumption Joe...

I didn't make any assumption. I asked a question. How is that making an assumption?

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@joefromchicago,

You made an implied assumption.

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@ebrown p,

No I didn't. You made an assumption, but I didn't. I just asked a question.

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@joefromchicago,

That last post was a joke, Joe (do I have to use the stupid smiley every time?).

I concede the point.

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Since "sex" fulfils basic physiological and psychological needs/drives it can, and has be used as an exchange commodity like other goods and services. The procreation angle is just one aspect which has been rationalized in conjunction with religion, and reinforced by an "immortality" factor for some.

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@fresco,

Quote:

Si vous ne buvez pas, vous ne vous droguez pas
Et n'avez aucun complexe,
Vous avez une obsession: c'est le sexe."

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@saab,

saab wrote:

As far as I know religion does not forbid us to enjoy sex. But I don´t know the rules and regulations of all religions.
....
There are moral and religious issues which make sence. Even though the issues might have started as a religious one it was often taken over by the state laws.

Homosexuality is considered a mortal sin in many religions. This entire population is forbidden to have sex let alone enjoy sex in the law books of many religions.

Female circumcision:

Quote:

Psychosexual reasons:
FGM/FGC is carried out as a means to control women’s sexuality (which is argued to be insatiable if parts of the genitalia, especially the clitoris, are not removed). It is thought to ensure virginity before and fidelity after marriage and/or to increase male sexual pleasure.

Religious reasons:
Although FGM/FGC is not sanctioned by either Islam nor by Christianity, supposed religious prescripts (e.g. the mention of ‘Sunna” in the Koran) are often used to justify the practice.

http://www.unfpa.org/gender/practices2.htm

Quote:

Sunna or Sunnah = Sunnah (سنة /ˈsunna/, plural سنن sunan /ˈsunæn/) is an Arabic word that means habit or usual practice[1]. The Muslim usage of this term refers to the sayings and living habits of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam.

Quote:

But the moral issues have changed over the centuries since the very first religon started

Okay... I'll bite

... what's the first religion?

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@tsarstepan,

Quote:

Quote:

But the moral issues have changed over the centuries since the very first religon started

Okay... I'll bite ... what's the first religion?

I will repeat... societal control of sexuality is NOT a feature of religion. It is a feature of society.

Social primates, for example chimpanzees, have rules about sexuality... members of a primate society that break the rules will be ostracized (or worse).

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@Francis,

"La Parisienne" je crois . Il y en a un clip ?

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@ebrown p,

Quote:

I will repeat... societal control of sexuality is NOT a feature of religion. It is a feature of society

Correct...but "religion" moves such control out of the domain of negotiation. It is the mental sledgehammer invented to crack the biological nut(s Wink

).

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@fresco,

Quote:

but "religion" moves such control out of the domain of negotiation

I don't buy this at all. If I understand you correctly I think you are saying that "religion" is somehow different than other social phenomena used to transmit social values. Of course, religion has been the basis of negotiation-- the civil rights movement in the United States sparked a needed public "negotiation" based on strongly religious themes.

There is an anti-religion theme here that is unsettling.

You are making an unsubstantiated claim. You provide no evidence for your undefined charges. You offer no means that we could even test your ill-defined hypothesis in an unbiased way.

Do you expect us to take this on faith?

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@ebrown p,

You seem to be ignoring the regulatory convolutions with respect to sex and gender enscribed in religious literature. What "function" do you think is served for example by:

The concept of "originial sin".
Circumcision.
Gender dress codes.
Separate gender worship.
Menstruation rules with respect to conjugal and domestic contact.
Intercourse rules with respect to occupation, day of the week, and ambient lighting.
Christian celibacy.
etc,etc,etc................?

It seems beyond doubt that much of "religion" is preoccupied with sexual "hangups" and the attempted legitimation of chauvinistic practices akin to gender roles in animals.

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Quote:

Social primates, for example chimpanzees, have rules about sexuality... members of a primate society that break the rules will be ostracized (or worse).

yet mature beta males often break those rules and in not a few cases do so successfully without being ostracised or suffering physical damage from the alpha male.
Receptive females encorge this behavior sometimes accepting mating from a number of subordinate males (after the alpha male has his turn).
i sense a backup plan here

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@dadpad,

In fact the ascription of the word "rules" to other primates is an anthropomorphic projection of the human concept of "rules". What is going on on in all primates, including us, is driven by biology. In our case, societal rules seek to modify such drives for the purposes of "joint planning".

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Quote:

my girlfriend on the other hand, has wuite the opposite view.

whats her phone number again?

seriously though this is what relationships are all about. finding a partner who agrees with you view.
you dont have to agree on everything but there will be certain issues for each couple, maybe this is one yours.
she may well change her view as she begins to think about having children. often this is when women want security and stability.

personally i think the time of meaningfull sexual relationships with emotional attachmnets and committment is rapidly drawing to a close. better health care, women not being dependant on men for security and stability, effective contraception, have all contributed.
That doesnt mean you or she can jump any partner you choose or do any sexually deviant thing rhat comes to mind. these things are a matter for negotiation between consenting adults.

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@tsarstepan,

The statement "Religion forbids sexual pleasure" is what I tried to answer.
Homosexuality was as you said a mortal sin, but also in the lawbooks of many western countries up to recently. A homosexual living a non sexual life was still shunned by society. It was not the sexual pleasure which was forbidden but the idea of someone being attracted to same gender.
FGM/FGC is carried out as a means to control women’s sexuality which is correct, but there is the crazy idea that it increases men´s sexual pleasure.
This means that religion does not forbid sexual pleasure - but cruelly discriminate against women.

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@dadpad,

Good point. Increased control of biology has led to societal shift, but not necessarily for "the better".

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@fresco,

Gender dress codes.
Separate gender worship.

I can contradict almost all of your points, but will stick with these two.
Not all religions tell us to wear gender dress codes. The gender dress code probably is more a pratical/social thing than a religious. Men hunted, did horseback riding and working in the fields - pants are better for that.
Women needed cloth in a shape which they could wear when pregnant as well as not pregnant. Then fashions came - a social thing.
Inuits wear the same type of cloth. Many natives too in reality more or less none. Scotsmen wear kilts.

Separate gender worship.
The very first Christians stopped that and mixed men and women. They wanted the women to be part of a congregation and not just someone with no voice.
Then the women simply talked so much that a seperation was better.
With Reformation came pews into the churches and again separation of men and women. Not only of religious reasons but also social reasons to protect women from men trying to be too "close".
In Lutheran churches women sat to the left and men to the right. Old icoons show Mary on the left side of the cross and John the Baptist on the right.
The left side was called Mary´s side and the right side John´s side.

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@fresco,

Quote:

You seem to be ignoring the regulatory convolutions with respect to sex and gender enscribed in religious literature. What "function" do you think is served for example by:

The flaw in your argument, Fresco, is that you are claiming there is a distinction between "religious" and "non-religious"-- Where you are painting religious as bad and non-religious as "good". But, you have provided no evidence that religious societies are any more restricted in their rules about society than non-religious societies. I think there is plenty of evidence that you are wrong.

Non-religious societies would include Mao's China-- with foot binding. Of course pre-Christian societies had the same sexual differences from the ancient Greeks and Romans with their strictly defined gender roles, to the Americas with sacrificial virgins.

I also note in the sexual regulations you list, you skipped the ones that we probably would agree are beneficial. Marriage has a indubitable religious history, as do rules against rape and incest.

If you are going to claim that some arbitrary sociological phenomenon like religion negatively affects a society, you need to show how a society without religion is better.

Is there any difference between societies that have religion and societies that have language? Yes, you could take the same claims you are making about religion, and make them about language.

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@ebrown p,

Under certain dictatorships politics was exchanged with religion. Mao´s China, Russia, East Germany and many others. A dictator will not accept any other God besides him.
Attitudes in China surely had to do with politics - Mao´s religion. One child families were strictly controlled. One person in the block gave out a certain amount of condoms per month. That is a very strict control of your personal sex life I would say. It certainly could take away a lot of the natural passion.
Foot-binding was forbidden about 100 years ago - before Mao. But of course women were suffering decads later.

1 Reply

Sex: attitudes and philosophy

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