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Homework isn't a test. As long as they are transcribing it themselves it serves its purpose.

 
 
dadpad
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 06:54 am
In a number of cases i have asked people to credit this site and the posters as references.
hopefully they do.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:02 am
@dadpad,
Yes, & taking that sort of approach, dp, with a student asking for help here, could require considerable ongoing interaction between you & the student. It is not something that can be done properly through a few posts. I'm not certain, in many cases I've come across in the past, that they actually want that sort of online interaction. Often they simply want to be given "the right answer".
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:08 am
@Robert Gentel,
I don't get the animosity either but different strokes, and all that.

Having accepted that some people have strong opinions about answering homework threads I sometimes wonder why they don't simply vote them down and move on. Providing a negative response or tag irritates me as much as the question irritates them. I could go on every single word game thread and tag it with "Get a life" but that would just be rude and irritating. The negative tags and responses on the homework threads are, imo, equally rude and irritating.
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:25 am
Quote:
As long as they are transcribing it themselves it serves its purpose.


In most cases answers provided may well be just cut 'n paste. In some cases not even read properly rather than being transcribed. When cut 'n paste happens I doubt the full meaning and knowledge is absorbed.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:26 am
@JPB,
This is my philosphy as well. If I see what I think of as a "lazy" homework question, I just move on. I don't really burn any emotional units over it. More often, I just toss out clues. My son recently discovered some of this in his history class. On one test, he used a study guide that he and some of his friends put together and did ok. The next one, he did the entire study himself and did really well. That said, I generally like helping on homework questions. I would love a thank you, but by now I realize it's not coming except in rare cases. Kind of like giving money to Haiti relief; if you do it expecting thanks, you will be disappointed, but if you want personal satisfaction, it works. Every now and then, I learn something as well.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:29 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
See, I learned huge amounts from asking questions on forums and I'd have been severely limited if people were telling me to get off the internet and use the textbook for example. I want to know what the difference is.

I think the difference is help as a substitute for thinking yourself vs. help as an amplifier for your own thinking. Kind of like the old chestnut that if you give a man to fish, he eats for one day, but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for his whole life.

When you asked the question, did your way of asking it show evidence of having thought about it already? How about if they didn't tell you to get off the internet, but pointed you to a reference on the internet: Did you read it? Did it help you? There's the difference for you.

By the way, I disagree with Eva and MsOlga about being expected to do your job without pay. If I remember correctly, both of them have asked computer questions on A2K without paying anyone there for computer support. And both of them would return the favor if they knew more about computers. I don't think this problem is about working without pay.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:31 am
@Thomas,
Well, they're both teachers so maybe it's too close to home to think of it otherwise.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:33 am
Personally, i don't vote on threads, up or down--i think it's silly. But on the subject of tags or comments about homework, i think it is perfectly reasonable to send out a message that people don't need to come here looking to get their homework done. You can bet the word gets around that you can got to this or that site to get your homework done, so i see nothing wrong with sending out the message that that isn't necessarily going to happen here. The fact that these clowns can't be bothered to even say thanks matters, too. We get droves of Chinese ESL students, and they are scrupulously polite, and almost always thank us for our help. It's a sad comment on the American teenyboppers who come here that they don't even have the decency to say thank you.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:53 am
A few years ago, I spent a considerable amount of time one evening with one student, who was required to write an art history essay. When I asked about particular aspects of the study topic, I received answers like "My teacher didn't explain that part properly." "She's not a very good teacher". I asked about what notes from class the student had to refer to, but there didn't appear to be any. Nor apparently, was there much in the way of printed "hand outs" from the teacher. This was a student trying to cobble together an essay on a Sunday night, due early in the coming school week.
I'm not saying that all young people who seek help online are as unmotivated to help themselves as this one appeared to be, but I came to the conclusion that I had made considerably more effort than the student had. (Like providing links related to the topic, which I first had to locate) ... and I decided that I simply wasn't prepared to put in as much of my own time, in that sort of way again.
However, if it was something like an attempt at clarifying a particular aspect of a topic a student was having trouble comprehending, that would be an entirely different matter. But there's got to be some initial understanding to work with, something to build on, for the effort to be of any real use.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:55 am
@Setanta,
I didn't vote on threads either until I realized that the thread disappears if you vote it down. I vote down all the threads I'm not interested in (say water softener questions) and when I pull up A2K, I get a much better list of topics. It makes my browsing much more efficient.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:55 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
Well, they're both teachers so maybe it's too close to home to think of it otherwise.

I get that this is a good reason for them to stay out of those threads. I'm reluctant to get into science threads myself. But I don't see a good reason for having a problem because the students asked.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 08:00 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
By the way, I disagree with Eva and MsOlga about being expected to do your job without pay.


I made no comment about not wanting to "work" online without pay.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 08:03 am
@msolga,
My mistake. I thought you had answered to Eva when you had in fact answered to dlowan. Sorry about that.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 08:08 am
@Thomas,
No problem, Thomas.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 08:17 am
@msolga,
You can usually spot the ones who are worth the effort if they ask intelligent questions after you first respond to them. Sometimes, asking any questions, intelligent or not particularly bright is evidence that they are at least paying attention. The example you give here sounds to me as though the student hadn't paid attention in class, and was now experiencing remorse because s/he hadn't done so and was now facing the consequences.

That being said, i have rarely run into anyone (other than the Chinese ESL students) who responds at all after you've answered their questions, never mind asking questions--dumb ones or bright ones--based on what you've said.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 08:23 am
@Setanta,
A little bit like those "I want to migrate to Oz. Tell me everything!" threads. I used to spend ages, checking real estate prices in particular places, providing government links, answering questions, whatever ... then, all too often, the person would just quietly vanish, never to be seen or heard of again! Wink Laughing
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 08:28 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

I completely get it and certainly don't blame you if you don't want to bring your work to able2know, but I just wonder why the homework gets what seems like additional ire.

For example, lots of the translation, legal questions, computer questions, etc are asking for a lot but they rarely get told off. I wonder if it's just that it's easier to talk that way (not talking about you, of course, but a theme I see across forums across the internet) to a child.


It likely IS easier to talk that way to a child. (Or a presumed child...I sometimes see ESL students being treated rudely as though they were a native English speaker being stupid, which makes me bristle.)

I think, though, that another issue may be the dominant A2k culture vs the "kid" culture...the questions often, I think, come off as uncourteously blunt, and irritatingly phrased and spelled to we more correct English speakers.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 08:29 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Yes, & taking that sort of approach, dp, with a student asking for help here, could require considerable ongoing interaction between you & the student. It is not something that can be done properly through a few posts.


Yep....I sometimes begin to try and engage a kid in that way, realise I don't really have the motivation to follow it through, and delete my post. That kind of makes me feel bad, so I then feel defensively grumpy!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 08:36 am
@msolga,
Yeah, i know what you mean. Despite RG's whining about this, it's not just homework questions. We had some joker from England who asked about driving from New York to Toronto, and he got detailed answers about routes to take, gasoline prices, where to stay, how much it would cost, sight-seeing in Toronto--that sort of thing. He got good, detailed answers, and then came back a couple of weeks later to say he had had a good time and thanks to all concerned. My personal reaction was, well, alright, that was worth the effort.

Except that it wasn't--that was the first, but not the last time i answered such a question. It was the first and the last time anyone came back to say thank you. I avoid those kinds of questions now, unless it's someone we already know here who is asking about a city or a region with which i am familiar.

It ain't just the homework kids who can by snotty about these things. Once again, taking the example of the Chinese ESL students, it wouldn't be hard for them to say thanks, and it would make a world of difference. Even if i sometimes get irritated with the ESL students, i give them the big benefit of the doubt, because they are scrupulously courteous.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 08:37 am
@Robert Gentel,
I do get irritated at people for asking, mainly because I think they're doing themselves a disservice. I don't harass them for it, though.

I suppose another issue is that I think it's disrespectful of the teacher, and the other students.
0 Replies
 
 

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